Bavarian fast transport/dispatch vessel.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Just a little vessel for some flexibility.

Designed as a fast transport/dispatch vessel.

Misc weight : 1950
25t Long range wireless.
132t Class 1 staterooms x 20
14t cargo
54 tons extra boats (4x 16t)
1700: troop decks/cargo hold. .
With a Bavarian Infantry battalion at 835 men, the vessel can transport a full battalion in the remaining 1700 tons. Alternately a wide variety of cargo can be moved so long as most of it is under 8 feet high.

Cruising speed is 50% of maximum power, and the electrical system allows boilers to be brought down for maintenance without pause.

Electrical  propulsion allows finer manuevering and full reverse capacity, and is combined with a double hull (the bulges) to provide additional resileance in primitive ports. At <5,000 tons she may use as little as a type 0 harbor.

Tern, Bavaria Dispatch vessel laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   4,994 t light; 5,155 t standard; 6,794 t normal; 8,105 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   482.28 ft / 475.72 ft x 55.77 ft (Bulges 65.62 ft) x 14.76 ft (normal load)
   147.00 m / 145.00 m x 17.00 m (Bulges 20.00 m)  x 4.50 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 147 lbs / 67 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 300

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 16,739 shp / 12,487 Kw = 21.75 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 18.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,950 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   373 - 486

Cost:
   £0.478 million / $1.912 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 18 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 727 tons, 10.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,299 tons, 33.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,800 tons, 26.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,950 tons, 28.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,056 lbs / 6,376 Kg = 397.9 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 14.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.516
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.81 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,940 Square feet or 1,667 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 191 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 78 lbs/sq ft or 382 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.61
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Korpen]

Just a little vessel for some flexibility.
1700: troop decks/cargo hold. .

These two are functionally different, space for cargo is "empty" weight, not adding to the cost of the ship, while troop space is included in the ships cost. This due to the critical aspect of human cargo is not weight, it is space, even with the weight of food and equipment for an extended transport, and it would be unlikely that the actual weight of a soldier would be more then 150-200kg.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Perhaps I'm missing a point here, unless the point is the weight needs to be functional. Since troops are functional misc. weight, I have to, and did, include that tonnage in what is paid for.

The result is a ship that has internal decks, holds and places to stick bunks, and so can carry 1700 tons of *something*, be that troops with a weight problem, or a field gun, matters little. While the exact same ship could not carry troops in a pinch if I failed to pay for the miscellaneous weight.

[Korpen]

Perhaps I'm missing a point here, unless the point is the weight needs to be functional. Since troops are functional misc. weight, I have to, and did, include that tonnage in what is paid for.

The result is a ship that has internal decks, holds and places to stick bunks, and so can carry 1700 tons of *something*, be that troops with a weight problem, or a field gun, matters little. While the exact same ship could not carry troops in a pinch if I failed to pay for the miscellaneous weight.

I think it do matter quite a bit, as quite a bit of the "troop" weight is taken up by the facilities such as bunk racks, mess halls, toilets, hygiene facilities and the like (my guess would be about 1/2 of the indicated weight at best).
A reasonable comparison I think is to compare it with a passenger train, it is perfectly possible to load it up with general cargo, but the cabins, seating, restaurant cart, toilets and such things will mean that it can carry allot less cargo then a dedicated freight train.

That said, adding some "empty" cargo capacity would not increase the cost of the ship much, and allow for more flexible employment.

[Kaiser Kirk]

The point of the presentation is the ship is built with internal decks, and limited holds. Those decks are as clear as possible, but would impose a space limitation on any goods. However once that is considered, it matters little if a man or a lump of lead is loaded.

As for fixed weight, I really really doubt those items would run a physical ton per person, even if each man had his own campstove, bathroom and hammock/bed, I would expect the net weight to be short of a ton.

One facility will serve multiple men, so as a guess, I would expect the weight to actually average closer to a couple hundred pounds per person (100-150kg +/-).

Granted, once the man is aboard, there would be weight allocated for food and water, and soap, ammo, spare clothes, etc, and at that point you may come closer to a physical ton.  Prior to that, those items do not need to be aboard, and the majority of that displacement would be available without overloading the ship.

From a loading perspective, that SS 2 tons/man is likely taken from OTL estimates of 2 GRT per man, a volume consideration more than straight weight. The tables I have don't even have weight, just GRT estimates per man/horse/gun/vehicle.   I believe Springstyle included a GRT means as well. This is why I raised the freeboard, to provide the room for the people, even though it reduced the weight I could carry. There's plenty of room.

[Carthaginian]

KK,

Bringing everything that I would intend to use with me for a full wartime deployment or sim-war exercise, me and all my gear & ammo tip the scale at roughly 525 pounds- so the short-term weight of 4 men per ton is bang-on right (I'm a big boy... but then again, I pack VERY light). Of course, that only includes a couple of MRE's and some tasty snacks... so I'm gonna get really hungry really fast unless you let me shoot someone and steal his rations.

It gets tricker to figure that for a long-term trip- but I'd imagine that I can eat, drink, shower, shave and flush the toilet enough to account for an extra 1500 pounds (as I said, I'm a big boy... and I eat like three of 'em). So I guess that to be on the safe side, the crew better do a bit of accommodating for me and others like me. I know that in a week's time, my 3-man team could demolish about 400 pounds of rations and 20+ gallons of water between us. That is RATIONS & WATER- waste not, want not... pure field living with no shaving or showering. For stuff that you have to keep on ice, has shells, rinds, bones or other parts that get thrown away, etc... well, you can imagine how much food we'd go through.

[maddox]

We took the figures for troop capacity from historical examples.

The one most involved direct in this is the Queen Mary, who could, and did carry 15 000 men in trans Atlantic voyages.

With a normal weight  22 000 tons over that of her Nverse variants , Le Magnificent and Mercury - capacity 8500 soldiers- it's the moderators view that we were realistic of 2 tons per soldier for longer voyages.

As put forward in the rules, it's a living document, that will change as the Nverse progresses.

Troop capacity of Queen Mary  81237ton/15000 soldiers is 5.41
Troop capacity of the Nverse superliners 58997/17000=6.94
Considering the technology available, and the fact the 2 superliners have an artificial limitation-  namely the reduced speed due changed engine issues between the Nverse II and Nverse III it's not a bad comparisation.

Seen on pure weight issues
The much more modern SS United States does better.  With a weight of 47300 tons at full load she can carry 15000 men at tremendous speeds. 
Le Magnificent on max load does "8.2 ton/man"
SS United states does on max load "3.15 ton/man"

And better than the 2 tons/man misc weight we specify.  It's doubtfull that an empty SS United States weights only 17300 tons.
But that is only possible at extreme costs, In 1916 aluminium was still a very very expensive material. And the SS United states was build in 1950.

SS United states, United States Troop ship laid down 1950

Displacement:
   31.844 t light; 32.720 t standard; 43.838 t normal; 52.733 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   1.004,62 ft / 990,00 ft x 101,00 ft x 31,00 ft (normal load)
   306,21 m / 301,75 m x 30,78 m  x 9,45 m

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   geared drive, 4 shafts, 248.004 shp / 185.011 Kw = 35,00 kts
   Range 10.000nm at 28,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 20.013 tons

Complement:
   1.514 - 1.969

Cost:
   £15,208 million / $60,831 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 5.933 tons, 13,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7.411 tons, 16,9%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 11.995 tons, 27,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 18.500 tons, 42,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     31.513 lbs / 14.294 Kg = 291,8 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 3,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
   Metacentric height 6,2 ft / 1,9 m
   Roll period: 17,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,87

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,495
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,80 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 31,46 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 9,00 ft / 2,74 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      40,00 ft / 12,19 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   32,00 ft / 9,75 m
      - Mid (50%):      32,00 ft / 9,75 m
      - Quarterdeck (20%):   32,00 ft / 9,75 m
      - Stern:      32,00 ft / 9,75 m
      - Average freeboard:   32,70 ft / 9,97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 267,0%
   Waterplane Area: 66.319 Square feet or 6.161 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 144%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 71 lbs/sq ft or 348 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,51
      - Longitudinal: 0,59
      - Overall: 0,52
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily

I build this one to DD specs to represent her grayhound origines and expensive build with aluminium.

I kept the range and given engine power as original (as far the numbers are known) for a logical result.

I would say that the pinnacle of fast troop transport in the Nverse will  have the troop/misc weight distribution of 1.2 tons/soldier. But that's in 1950.

[Kaiser Kirk]

We took the figures for troop capacity from historical examples.

The one most involved direct in this is the Queen Mary, who could, and did carry 15 000 men in trans Atlantic voyages.

With a normal weight  22 000 tons over that of her Nverse variants , Le Magnificent and Mercury - capacity 8500 soldiers- it's the moderators view that we were realistic of 2 tons per soldier for longer voyages.

I did not know that. The 2 tons a soldier is the same as the Springsharp notes, and my US War Dept. handbook on the Germans gives 2 GRT / Ton, so I was presuming some linkage.

[maddox]

When we started on troop transports- way back in the nverse II- we took historical data to confirm the Springsharp notes. The part I remember the best is the link to the WW II troop transports.

But, yes, there is a linkage.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Sorry to take some time to get back to this.

There are two subjects under discussion.

1)  If 2 tons per troop are required, what is the actual fixed weight required ?.  Korpen suggested 1 ton.
I submit that the 2 tons is more physical space (rooms/passages/storerooms/messhauls) and supplies than things like armory storage, bunks, toilets, showerheads, plates, stoves. Indeed except for the bunk, the remainder would be shared among many troops and the actual fixed weight per troop is likely low.


2) The United Stateshas been used as an example.  Looking at the SIM, there is only 18,500 miscellaneous weight provided, which would only let it carry 9,250 troops not the 15,000 of reality. Further, full load is a bad metric to base a ratio on, as it is heavily fuel dependent - look at the 20,013 tons of fuel she carried. If she had half the range, or was slower, her full load displacement would be dramatically less.

Browsing around for conditions on Liner-transports, I found on the QE notes of "She could carry up to 15,000 troops in a single trip. The troops would sleep in shifts on the limited bunks. " and ""stacked four high in elaborate cabins which had forty people in them"... which sounds like a space limitation rather than weight.

Further, I expect that there is a difference between dedicated Troop transports, such as the AP-120 class, which likely made provisions for combat loading, and Liner conversions meant to transport troops from one base to another.

However, since I want to be free to storyline lugging cargo around on this thing, regardless of the results of this discussion, so I have fiddled with the design, dropping a little speed for adding some dedicated cargo weight.

Tern, Bavaria Dispatch vessel laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
    4,994 t light; 5,155 t standard; 6,794 t normal; 8,105 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
    482.28 ft / 475.72 ft x 55.77 ft (Bulges 65.62 ft) x 14.76 ft (normal load)
    147.00 m / 145.00 m x 17.00 m (Bulges 20.00 m)  x 4.50 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1916 Model
      Quick firing guns in deck mounts
      on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
      Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1916 Model
      Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
      on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
    Weight of broadside 147 lbs / 67 kg
    Shells per gun, main battery: 300

Machinery:
    Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
    Electric motors, 2 shafts, 13,397 shp / 9,994 Kw = 20.50 kts
    Range 5,000nm at 18.00 kts
    Bunker at max displacement = 2,950 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
    373 - 486

Cost:
    £0.445 million / $1.779 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
    Armament: 18 tons, 0.3 %
    Machinery: 582 tons, 8.6 %
    Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,194 tons, 32.3 %
    Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,800 tons, 26.5 %
    Miscellaneous weights: 2,200 tons, 32.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
    Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
      13,672 lbs / 6,202 Kg = 387.1 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
    Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
    Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
    Roll period: 15.4 seconds
    Steadiness    - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
            - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
    Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.80

Hull form characteristics:
    Hull has a flush deck
    Block coefficient: 0.516
    Length to Beam Ratio: 7.25 : 1
    'Natural speed' for length: 21.81 kts
    Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
    Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
    Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
    Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
    Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
       - Stem:        18.04 ft / 5.50 m
       - Forecastle (20 %):    18.04 ft / 5.50 m
       - Mid (50 %):        18.04 ft / 5.50 m
       - Quarterdeck (15 %):    18.04 ft / 5.50 m
       - Stern:        18.04 ft / 5.50 m
       - Average freeboard:    18.04 ft / 5.50 m
    Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
    Space    - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.1 %
        - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165.3 %
    Waterplane Area: 17,940 Square feet or 1,667 Square metres
    Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 194 %
    Structure weight / hull surface area: 78 lbs/sq ft or 380 Kg/sq metre
    Hull strength (Relative):
        - Cross-sectional: 0.97
        - Longitudinal: 1.30
        - Overall: 1.00
    Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
    Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
    Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
    Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Designed as a fast transport/dispatch vessel.
Submergence 1595/ton

Misc weight : 2200
25t Long range wireless.
132t Class 1 staterooms x 20
14t cargo
54 tons extra boats (4x 16t)
250 tons : dedicated cargo hold
1700: troop decks
With a Bavarian Infantry battalion at 835 men, the vessel can transport a full battalion. Alternately a wide variety of cargo can be moved so long as it fits the troop spaces.

Cruising speed is 66% of maximum power, and the electrical system allows boilers to be brought down for maintenance without pause.

Electrical  propulsion allows finer maneuvering and full reverse capacity, and is combined with a double hull (the bulges) to provide additional resiliences in primitive ports.