firanji cc's

[sgdn]

Right so firanji is considering a pair cruisers and/or a battleship here is the cruiser designed for scouting cruising  and a bit of most things

1916  plan a

tel, Firnaji Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   5,498 t light; 5,705 t standard; 6,194 t normal; 6,585 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 45.93 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 14.00 m  x 7.00 m

Armament:
      8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (1x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 889 lbs / 403 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 160
   12 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 141 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 38,893 shp / 29,014 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 880 tons

Complement:
   348 - 453

Cost:
   £0.800 million / $3.198 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 111 tons, 1.8 %
   Armour: 1,749 tons, 28.2 %
      - Belts: 1,157 tons, 18.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 116 tons, 1.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 448 tons, 7.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 29 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 1,449 tons, 23.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,889 tons, 30.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 696 tons, 11.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 4.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,290 lbs / 2,853 Kg = 75.1 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
   Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 15.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.522
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (38 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.79 ft / 5.12 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,295 Square feet or 1,142 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 82 lbs/sq ft or 400 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.62
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped


plan b

tel, Firnaji Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   5,614 t light; 5,841 t standard; 6,336 t normal; 6,732 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 45.93 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 14.00 m  x 7.00 m

Armament:
      8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (2x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all amidships
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 1,056 lbs / 479 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 160
   12 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 141 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 39,663 shp / 29,589 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 891 tons

Complement:
   354 - 461

Cost:
   £0.842 million / $3.366 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 132 tons, 2.1 %
   Armour: 1,778 tons, 28.1 %
      - Belts: 1,157 tons, 18.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 138 tons, 2.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 453 tons, 7.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 29 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 1,478 tons, 23.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,926 tons, 30.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 723 tons, 11.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 4.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,282 lbs / 2,849 Kg = 75.0 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
   Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 15.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 49 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.534
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (38 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.79 ft / 5.12 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 72.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,433 Square feet or 1,155 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 83 lbs/sq ft or 405 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.60
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

plan c

tel, Firnaji Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   5,476 t light; 5,683 t standard; 6,170 t normal; 6,560 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 45.93 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 14.00 m  x 7.00 m

Armament:
      8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all amidships
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 889 lbs / 403 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 160
   12 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 141 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 38,765 shp / 28,918 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 878 tons

Complement:
   347 - 452

Cost:
   £0.797 million / $3.189 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 111 tons, 1.8 %
   Armour: 1,752 tons, 28.4 %
      - Belts: 1,157 tons, 18.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 120 tons, 1.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 447 tons, 7.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 29 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 1,444 tons, 23.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,869 tons, 30.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 694 tons, 11.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 4.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,302 lbs / 2,859 Kg = 75.3 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
   Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 15.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.520
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (38 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.79 ft / 5.12 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,272 Square feet or 1,140 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 81 lbs/sq ft or 396 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.62
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

so what do you all think  mbe some biger guns at a and y positions?

[Valles]

The low stability might be an issue - most of us have taken to keeping that score to a minimum of 1.10 - and I am, myself, not a fan of the heavy torpedo armament carried out in the open... even besides the fact that my personal case of 20/20 involves ships vs. aircraft for scouting.

That said, among those presented, I'd probably go for Plan B.

[mentat]

The high level of protection - incl long (141% vs 'normal')and deep* main and upper belts + lots of armament - 10/12 main batt. + 12 TTs - is probably making them rather top heavy and reflected in poor handling - Stability, Steadiness (very important for gunnery perfmce in smaller ships) as well as Sbt Qlty

* in particular - total height of both belts together is 24.6'  vs 16' freeboard - 8' of main belt is underwater!! - you can safely reduce depth of main belt - to 11/12'?

Also - deck space - looks like will be very cramped - 5/6 centreline twin turrets and 4x3 TTs - have you checked deck layout to see if it all fits on the rather short 400' hull?

I think practical operation of such a ship would lead to some redn in armt/main belt

[Valles]

Deep belts are a good idea, despite their weight costs, for several reasons. First, particularly on faster ships like this one, is the fact that bow waves don't merely rise above the nominal waterline - they drop just as far below it afterwards, which would leave unarmored hull exposed to shellfire on a shallow belt. Second, damaged ships list, raising the waterline on one side and lowering it on the other; again, a deeper belt decreases the chance that that list will go far enough to expose a vulnerable point. Third, one of Springsharp 2's sins, in my eyes, is the fact that it provides no indication whatsoever as to the degree that a ship's draft varies depending on its loading; I've seen designs that would have their belts almost submerged when fully loaded and actually out of the water when running with tanks dry.

[sgdn]

i have some questions is it worth haveing an armoured deck on Cruisers

new ship sam role to be a nusance

tel, Firnaji Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   5,350 t light; 5,549 t standard; 6,028 t normal; 6,412 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 45.93 ft x 22.01 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 14.00 m  x 6.71 m

Armament:
      8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (1x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline amidships
      6 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4 mounts), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 914 lbs / 415 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 145
   6 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 141 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 2.95" / 75 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 38,345 shp / 28,605 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 863 tons

Complement:
   341 - 444

Cost:
   £0.791 million / $3.163 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 114 tons, 1.9 %
   Armour: 1,722 tons, 28.6 %
      - Belts: 1,157 tons, 19.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 92 tons, 1.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 451 tons, 7.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 21 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 1,429 tons, 23.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,835 tons, 30.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 678 tons, 11.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 4.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,329 lbs / 2,871 Kg = 75.6 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
   Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 14.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 49 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.530
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (38 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.54 ft / 5.04 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 94.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,386 Square feet or 1,151 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 81 lbs/sq ft or 395 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.47
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate


Miscellaneous weights
100t fire con
25 big radio
the rest tbd maby mines?

[mentat]

Armament outfit looks practical

Armour deck definitely useful - perhaps 40mm is a minimum vs 5-6" gunfire - but doesn't save much

Stability now gives more reserve in case of damage

But the design still focuses very much on protection (Armour at 28% is pretty high for Cruiser) - probably at the expense of steadiness and seakeeping

  Really depends in what situation/conditions they will likely operate - at the moment I think they would suffer in moderate-heavy seas

I think may help on same tonnage:

   - raise focsle

   - reduce draft and increase beam - then tweak trim to increase steadiness


Also - could reduce average main belt thickness to sim some reduction of lower edge of belt - lowest 4' is least exposed

  ?? - still some scope to reduce length of main + upper belts - replace main with thinner end belt to help protect flotation

[Korpen]

A few things, some rule-related.

Armament:
      8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (1x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline amidships

Twin gun mounts have to be researched separately, taking two half-years to complete. As Firanji completed digesting the light cruiser tech in 2/1915, it is not possible to have the gun mount ready to be used on a design until 1/1917 at the earliest.

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 141 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 2.95" / 75 mm

I do think she is somewhat over-armoured. Given the belt armour there is less need for a very think deck, so I think it could be cut to around 30mm without any real loss.
I also think that the amount of belt armour is excessive as well. Would recommend cutting it about 1m in height, and reduce thickness somewhat (to about 9cm), perhaps increasing the height of the upper belt 50cm to compensate.

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 38,345 shp / 28,605 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 863 tons

At only 27 knots she would be the slowest "modern" Firanji cruiser, think you should go for 28kts minimum to allow her to function with the existing ships. Her range is a bit low for 1916 engines and 100% oil, in fact she carries much less fuel then the preceding classes counted in tons.

The weight savings should go towards first increasing speed to 28kts, and then to make the ship smaller, as the offer very little increase in combat capability for a huge increas in cost compared to the other Firanji cruisers.

A problem with the cruiser is that you have chosen to restrict her to a type 1 dock, and I think a 5000 ton cruiser is really to large to be squeezed into such a format. If wanting a ship for type 1 docks, go for something at most 3500 ton.

[sgdn]

dam thats another think on the list

right time for a new derection i think

Saladin 2, Firnaji Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   4,179 t light; 4,338 t standard; 4,848 t normal; 5,256 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 45.93 ft x 18.04 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 14.00 m  x 5.50 m

Armament:
      4 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 721 lbs / 327 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140
   6 - 17.7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 128 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2.95" / 75 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 38,679 shp / 28,854 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 918 tons

Complement:
   289 - 377

Cost:
   £0.693 million / $2.774 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 90 tons, 1.9 %
   Armour: 751 tons, 15.5 %
      - Belts: 450 tons, 9.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 59 tons, 1.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 223 tons, 4.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 18 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,441 tons, 29.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,697 tons, 35.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 669 tons, 13.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 4.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4,304 lbs / 1,952 Kg = 51.4 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 14.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.520
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Mid (38 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.54 ft / 5.35 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 115.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,272 Square feet or 1,140 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 77 lbs/sq ft or 374 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.59
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Miscellaneous weights:
100t fire com
25t big radio
75t dont know

[mentat]

  Yes - seem good little ships, handy for most CL work - why not build a few while you work on the later tech :) - small cruisers are always kept busy

Some small points:

-  would benefit from more shells per gun main battery - maybe 180 ish

- given single mounts, might be possible to fit in 5 centreline and just 2 wing turrets - but the saving is probably minimal

[sgdn]

180 shells any sugestions for names? bill and ben astrex and obliex

Saladin 2, Firnaji Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   4,177 t light; 4,355 t standard; 4,866 t normal; 5,274 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 45.93 ft x 18.11 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 14.00 m  x 5.52 m

Armament:
      4 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 721 lbs / 327 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 180
   6 - 17.7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 128 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -         1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2.95" / 75 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 38,767 shp / 28,920 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 920 tons

Complement:
   290 - 378

Cost:
   £0.694 million / $2.776 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 90 tons, 1.9 %
   Armour: 751 tons, 15.4 %
      - Belts: 450 tons, 9.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 59 tons, 1.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 223 tons, 4.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 18 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,444 tons, 29.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,692 tons, 34.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 688 tons, 14.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 4.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4,313 lbs / 1,956 Kg = 51.5 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 13.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.520
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Mid (38 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.54 ft / 5.35 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 115.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,272 Square feet or 1,140 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 76 lbs/sq ft or 373 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.58
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[sgdn]

right so how about some thing bigger useual cruiser stuff mess with the opposition back up the big ships find the opposition and be a real nusance

gar marr, Firnaji Cruiser laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   8,176 t light; 8,555 t standard; 9,290 t normal; 9,879 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 55.77 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 170.00 m x 17.00 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (2x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 1,726 lbs / 783 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 180
   12 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.94" / 100 mm   393.70 ft / 120.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm     82.02 ft / 25.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     82.02 ft / 25.00 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   393.70 ft / 120.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 109 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   393.70 ft / 120.00 m   12.80 ft / 3.90 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm         -         0.98" / 25 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -         0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -         0.98" / 25 mm
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 2.95" / 75 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 49,044 shp / 36,587 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 7,500nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,324 tons

Complement:
   473 - 615

Cost:
   £1.315 million / $5.260 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 216 tons, 2.3 %
   Armour: 2,560 tons, 27.6 %
      - Belts: 1,406 tons, 15.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 367 tons, 3.9 %
      - Armament: 138 tons, 1.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 621 tons, 6.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 28 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 1,827 tons, 19.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,273 tons, 35.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,114 tons, 12.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 3.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12,102 lbs / 5,489 Kg = 144.5 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 14.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.531
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Mid (38 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.65 ft / 5.38 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 134.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 21,328 Square feet or 1,981 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 96 lbs/sq ft or 470 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.17
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Miscellaneous weights so far
100t fire con
25t bigradio
24t 12ready + 12 reload

some thing smaller

tel, Firnaji Cruiser laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   4,820 t light; 5,007 t standard; 5,492 t normal; 5,880 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 45.93 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 14.00 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 889 lbs / 403 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   1.18" / 30 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     32.81 ft / 10.00 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   0.20" / 5 mm     16.40 ft / 5.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 141 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm         -         0.98" / 25 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -         0.98" / 25 mm
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.18" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 2.95" / 75 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 42,260 shp / 31,526 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 872 tons

Complement:
   318 - 414

Cost:
   £0.877 million / $3.509 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 111 tons, 2.0 %
   Armour: 1,055 tons, 19.2 %
      - Belts: 699 tons, 12.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 63 tons, 1.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 273 tons, 5.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 20 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,575 tons, 28.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,829 tons, 33.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 673 tons, 12.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 4.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4,811 lbs / 2,182 Kg = 57.5 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 2.0 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 13.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.08

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.540
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Mid (38 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m (16.40 ft / 5.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.65 ft / 5.38 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 12,503 Square feet or 1,162 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 389 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.89
      - Longitudinal: 2.70
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate


Miscellaneous weights so far
100t fire con
25t bigradio
12t 6ready + 6 reload

well any thing to say bsed on the Saladin class ish kind of maybe

[The Rock Doctor]

I think Gar Marr is going to have deck space issues.  There's a lot of weapon mounts there.

On the other hand, the torpedo bulkhead is of little value for a ship of that size, so lose it and you can probably bump the speed up.

[Guinness]

I don't know: knowing how big the Confederate twin 5.5" gunhouse is (12.5 feet from the axis of rotation to the back of the mount, 18.5 feet to the end of the barrels, so you can use those two figures to give you approximate training arcs, etc.) The CSA single deck mount needs slightly less space, of course.

So given a hull 557 feet long and 55.7 feet in beam, I think all those gunhouses would fit. It wold be tight though, and finding space for necessary command and control, ships boats, etc. would be difficult. The forecastle might have to be shortened down to 15% of total length (or even less though). Also, a better arrangement, given the step in the hull might be a pair of twin mounts with one superfiring aft, a single twin mount forward before the bridge on the forecastle, and 3 twins along either side, giving the same number of guns, but eliminating the singles. This would save some length for other stuff, like the 75mms.

The thing that might not fit is all the torpedoes though. I'm not sure how I'd arrange them, but I think at least some of them would end up on the quarterdeck.

I agree with Maddox on the TDS. There's not enough beam for it to fit adequately really (despite the fact that SS let's you do it). 28 knots is probably not fast enough for a (heavy) light cruiser with 1916 engines in my opinion.

Necessary disclaimer: In speculating about deck space, I'm just drawing this ship in my head, so actual results would vary.

[Jefgte]

8000t with 20x140...

This cruiser is made to repulse DDs divisions...


;)

[maddox]

And I tought the Demarce IIIb Volcano was a badass cruiser with 12 140mm guns in twins.