Brandenburg Ship Proposals for 1917

[Sachmle]

What a beauty  :o

Nice 1/700 model to scratch  :D


;)

More than impressive... she looks absolutely vicious.
She will definately give the enemies of the Reich pause.

Yes - she looks equipped for the 1920s :)

Danke.

[Desertfox]

I also had a destroyer blown up by a german zeppelin.

[mentat]

 Bitte!

  - und - she is now lean and mean with an uber anti-TBD battery  :D

[Sachmle]

And a possible next Gen Battlecruiser to replace the Scharnhorst's in front line action.

Ersatz Scharnhorst, Brandenburg Schlachtkruezer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   31,290 t light; 32,497 t standard; 34,795 t normal; 36,633 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.79 ft / 715.22 ft x 100.56 ft x 32.15 ft (normal load)
   220.00 m / 218.00 m x 30.65 m  x 9.80 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,038.38lbs / 471.00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.91lbs / 24.00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
      4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 9,036 lbs / 4,099 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.8" / 325 mm   465.06 ft / 141.75 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   250.16 ft / 76.25 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Upper:   6.89" / 175 mm   465.06 ft / 141.75 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   465.06 ft / 141.75 m   33.46 ft / 10.20 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      11.0" / 280 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 10.83" / 275 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 136,000 shp / 101,456 Kw = 29.89 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,136 tons

Complement:
   1,273 - 1,655

Cost:
   £5.215 million / $20.860 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 956 tons, 2.7 %
   Armour: 12,272 tons, 35.3 %
      - Belts: 5,931 tons, 17.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,134 tons, 3.3 %
      - Armament: 2,277 tons, 6.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,683 tons, 7.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 249 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 5,067 tons, 14.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,495 tons, 35.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,505 tons, 10.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     49,926 lbs / 22,646 Kg = 57.7 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 7.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 63 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.527
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.74 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 11.60 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31.99 ft / 9.75 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   27.89 ft / 8.50 m
      - Mid (50 %):      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Stern:      27.89 ft / 8.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   25.39 ft / 7.74 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 49,110 Square feet or 4,562 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 172 lbs/sq ft or 841 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.56
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250t 1908 Fire Control
50t 1905 "Radar"
25t Long Range Markoni
40t 20 1913 50cm Torpedoes
35t 35 Mines
100t Weight Reserve

[P3D]

1kts is barely a margin over my cruisers, the ship is outgunned by the Dutch ships or my BCs, light secondaries means two or three destroyer squadrons could surround her. But she's at least clearly superior to the four newer Swiss BCs. And you have to develop the guns too.

[Korpen]

Well, I do think she is seriously undergunned for her size. Even with 305/L50 guns she is at a disadvantage against pretty much all major artillery ships.
I did a re-sim I played around with, and you could get eight of your 35/45 with fairly minor modifications. I lowered freeboard with 1 to1,5m, reduced upper belt to 105mm, end belts to 75mm and torpedo bulkhead to 40mm. While it is not fun to reduce armour, I do think it is worth it to get 20-25% greater power from the main battery.

However I do not agree on the "surrounded by destroyers" fear, she is fast enough that all but the very fastest (35-36kts) DDs will lack the margin of speed needed to surround her unless she cooperates.

[P3D]

My DD comment is rather on the weak secondaries in case of the ship finds herself in a tactically disadvantageous situation.

[RAM]

the name of the ship will be derrflinger, right? ;)

[mentat]

Agree with Korpen - and if you take her in that direction - Mackensen? :)

[mentat]

With a bit more thought:

First - must say really like the Current S & G - possibly my favourite ships in nverse!

I particularly liked mix of good speed for their day, well protected and good armament vs BBs (6 x12) and CLs (6.7s) - a neat package


However - following on the above comments this draft design rather puzzles me:

BB protn (35% armour) - so can/will go in the Battleline? - but weak Main Battery for the size (even if the 305s are 50Cal) and Secrs - only 12 guns vs TBDs - your BB has 24

Thick Upper Belt - useful to give more complete protn vs Cruisers - but Secr'y armament also weak on calibre - 5.5 better vs. CLs than 4.7s

35 Mines ?!?

What will she be used for??

[Jefgte]

This BC is good for front line action with a very high protection.
Armament is made to engage 1st generation of BC, not 1918 BB or BC...& she is 31200t.


;)

[mentat]

  Curiouser  .. and curiouser  ???

  A New Fast Heavy ship with lovely new (liberating) engine tech. (that will cost $$$ and take 3 yrs to build?) with a hoped /planned for lifetime of 20+ years


- equipped with (for its size) quite weak main + sec'ry armament - and only designed to counter existing opponents .....

[Sachmle]

Made a few changes to Ersatz M. Thinned the belt to 35cm, as 38cm is overkill and wastes weight. Brought speed inline w/ the current battleline speed of 23kts. Saved weight allowed for slight lengthening for better seakeeping, and allowed a modest beam increase to get better stability/steadiness.

Ersatz M, Brandenburg Linienschiffen laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   29,810 t light; 31,332 t standard; 32,793 t normal; 33,962 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   635.94 ft / 629.00 ft x 105.81 ft x 28.74 ft (normal load)
   193.83 m / 191.72 m x 32.25 m  x 8.76 m

Armament:
      8 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,951.09lbs / 885.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.91lbs / 24.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.91lbs / 24.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.75lbs / 1.70kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 16,997 lbs / 7,710 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   4 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   377.99 ft / 115.21 m   14.01 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   251.02 ft / 76.51 m   10.01 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   239.99 ft / 73.15 m   14.01 ft / 4.27 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.36" / 60 mm   377.99 ft / 115.21 m   32.81 ft / 10.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   9.84" / 250 mm      13.8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   5.91" / 150 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 56,063 shp / 41,823 Kw = 23.46 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,631 tons

Complement:
   1,217 - 1,583

Cost:
   £5.249 million / $20.996 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,847 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 12,258 tons, 37.4 %
      - Belts: 4,667 tons, 14.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,084 tons, 3.3 %
      - Armament: 3,543 tons, 10.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,659 tons, 8.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 304 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,089 tons, 6.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,122 tons, 40.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,983 tons, 9.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 495 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     48,183 lbs / 21,855 Kg = 28.8 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 8.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
   Roll period: 17.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.30

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.600
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.94 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.08 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.40 degrees
   Stern overhang: -6.56 ft / -2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Forecastle (23 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m (24.02 ft / 7.32 m aft of break)
      - Mid (60 %):      24.02 ft / 7.32 m (16.01 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.22 ft / 6.47 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 158.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 48,678 Square feet or 4,522 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 201 lbs/sq ft or 983 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.59
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250t Fire Control
25t Markoni Installation
25t Sendes Auge
20t Torpedoes
25t Admiral's Quaters
25t Flag Facilities
50t Climate Control
75t Weight Reserve