NUS planned BB for 1915.

[mentat]

 That Midship Turret - as may be apparent I don't like it much lol

Re Midships Turret and freeboard - I'm thinking of comparable designs historically:

Andrea Doria - the midships turret was raised very high from the low deck level and it was designed for the Med. - the high barbette was excessively ugly and expensive - but I guess there was some practical reason involved??

UK RN - Iron Dukes etc - definitely designed for Open Ocean ops - middle turret was a deck higher and rear facing - very protected

Another consideration is the forward casements - very exposed to bad sea conditions - if the midships turret is ditched - the forward secondaries can be moved back and up a deck - like the rear casements

All in all - some alternatives to consider - esp. if intended theatre of Opns is            S. Atlantic - can get pretty rough I think

[RAM]

That Midship Turret - as may be apparent I don't like it much lol

Re Midships Turret and freeboard - I'm thinking of comparable designs historically:

Andrea Doria - the midships turret was raised very high from the low deck level and it was designed for the Med. - the high barbette was excessively ugly and expensive - but I guess there was some practical reason involved??

IIRC andrea doria had a deck level midship turret. It's just that the ship had a lower quarterdeck, not a raised forecastle. Thus the midships turret was level with the A turret, but mounted at deck level. And the turret was mounted facing forward.



I can do something similar with my ship. Would require a bit of toying around for the resulting composite strenght is 0.99 due to a higher average freeboard. As long as the midships turret is NOT declared as superfiring, that is.

So question is, in a ship like the italian ones, the midship turret would be declared as raised, or not?. I'd say not ,but I'll hear from everyone else beforehand.

[maddox]

The Q turret is about level with A and X,  Y is 1 step down.

In Springsharp the ships has a break amidships  (maybe 55-65%),  Q turret is deck level, and X raised.
Y, due the break amidships, is a level lower.

Otherwise, the break is before midships, and then  B,  Q and  X  are raised.

[P3D]

Why not 4T3x13.5"?

The casemates are 5.5m above sea level, that's not too bad IMO. But the fore 8 of
them are below the freeboard according to the drawing.

You do not really need 11000nm+ range. Do you want to operate the ships alone in the North Atlantic or the California coast?

You have too many funnels for 40,000SHP, two (or even one) would be fine (no need to correct this until after everything is fixed on the design).

[RAM]

Ok, then, what about something like this?.


[edit] Well, I didn't notice it but seems you're right, p3d. I had modelled the secondaries as 10 raised mounts, when truth is that there are 10 mounts at the normal level, while there are 8 mounted low. I changed the model accordingly with springsharp. Gave a bit of extra composite strenght I used to widen the hull a bit.

oh, btw, a design note I must comment. As you might see, the upper belt is extended well into the forecastle, with an extension well over the 2.5m I put in the design. It's not well seen in the pic, the deck just below the midships turret is also intended to have the 150mm armor the upper belt has (and which the casemate mounts also have). This is intentional.

Most of the belt is a bit less than 2m (drawing shows 6 feet). I abstracted the upper belt width making it as a 2.5m one...that would compensate for the extra armor in the places I said above. Hope this is acceptable.





independencia, NUS Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   27.461 t light; 29.138 t standard; 31.833 t normal; 33.989 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   629,69 ft / 623,36 ft x 105,97 ft x 30,68 ft (normal load)
   191,93 m / 190,00 m x 32,30 m  x 9,35 m

Armament:
      9 - 13,50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1.230,19lbs / 558,00kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      4 - 13,50" / 343 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.230,19lbs / 558,00kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      18 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      6 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 1,00" / 25,4 mm guns in single mounts, 0,50lbs / 0,23kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 18.019 lbs / 8.173 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   3 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,4" / 340 mm   436,35 ft / 133,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Ends:   4,33" / 110 mm   183,73 ft / 56,00 m   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
     3,28 ft / 1,00 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   420,28 ft / 128,10 m   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,38" / 35 mm   442,91 ft / 135,00 m   23,79 ft / 7,25 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   7,87" / 200 mm      12,2" / 310 mm
   2nd:   13,8" / 350 mm   7,87" / 200 mm      12,2" / 310 mm
   3rd:   5,91" / 150 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -
   5th:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 5,91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 42.198 shp / 31.480 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 11.500nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.851 tons

Complement:
   1.191 - 1.549

Cost:
   £4,493 million / $17,971 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.252 tons, 7,1 %
   Armour: 10.911 tons, 34,3 %
      - Belts: 4.440 tons, 13,9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 537 tons, 1,7 %
      - Armament: 3.121 tons, 9,8 %
      - Armour Deck: 2.686 tons, 8,4 %
      - Conning Tower: 128 tons, 0,4 %
   Machinery: 1.683 tons, 5,3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12.139 tons, 38,1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.373 tons, 13,7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 475 tons, 1,5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     35.756 lbs / 16.218 Kg = 29,1 x 13,5 " / 343 mm shells or 6,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
   Metacentric height 7,0 ft / 2,1 m
   Roll period: 16,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,39
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,88 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,97 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3,28 ft / -1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23,62 ft / 7,20 m
      - Forecastle (31 %):   21,65 ft / 6,60 m (13,45 ft / 4,10 m aft of break)
      - Mid (60 %):      13,45 ft / 4,10 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   13,45 ft / 4,10 m
      - Stern:      13,45 ft / 4,10 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,24 ft / 4,95 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90,8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99,2 %
   Waterplane Area: 46.094 Square feet or 4.282 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 201 lbs/sq ft or 982 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,37
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[RAM]

Why not 4T3x13.5"?

Because I've always loved the looks of italian battleships of the WW1 era. And because I didn't really expected a huge improvement with a 4 triple turret layout. I was exchanging one gun for what I expected, was a very minor improvement. Some tries I did initially seemed to back up that point.

But boy, how wrong I was. I don't know exactly why (maybe the cut in lenght has a lot to do with this), but when I revisited the 4x3 gun configuration... well, I won't write anything else. Just see the results:



independencia, NUS Battleship laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   25.265 t light; 26.794 t standard; 28.710 t normal; 30.243 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   629,69 ft / 623,36 ft x 98,43 ft x 28,87 ft (normal load)
   191,93 m / 190,00 m x 30,00 m  x 8,80 m

Armament:
      12 - 13,50" / 343 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1.230,19lbs / 558,00kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      18 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      8 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 1,00" / 25,4 mm guns in single mounts, 0,50lbs / 0,23kg shells, 1905 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 16.816 lbs / 7.628 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   3 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,4" / 340 mm   410,11 ft / 125,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Ends:   4,33" / 110 mm   209,97 ft / 64,00 m   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
     3,28 ft / 1,00 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   5,91" / 150 mm   360,89 ft / 110,00 m   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,38" / 35 mm   410,11 ft / 125,00 m   22,97 ft / 7,00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,8" / 350 mm   7,87" / 200 mm      12,2" / 310 mm
   2nd:   5,91" / 150 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -
   4th:   0,79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,15" / 80 mm, Conning tower: 5,91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 39.628 shp / 29.563 Kw = 22,00 kts
   Range 8.500nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.449 tons

Complement:
   1.102 - 1.433

Cost:
   £4,176 million / $16,705 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2.102 tons, 7,3 %
   Armour: 10.156 tons, 35,4 %
      - Belts: 4.202 tons, 14,6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 480 tons, 1,7 %
      - Armament: 2.819 tons, 9,8 %
      - Armour Deck: 2.536 tons, 8,8 %
      - Conning Tower: 119 tons, 0,4 %
   Machinery: 1.580 tons, 5,5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10.952 tons, 38,1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.445 tons, 12,0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 475 tons, 1,7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     31.005 lbs / 14.064 Kg = 25,2 x 13,5 " / 343 mm shells or 5,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 5,8 ft / 1,8 m
   Roll period: 17,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,567
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,97 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3,28 ft / -1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23,62 ft / 7,20 m
      - Forecastle (38 %):   21,65 ft / 6,60 m (13,45 ft / 4,10 m aft of break)
      - Mid (60 %):      13,45 ft / 4,10 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   13,45 ft / 4,10 m
      - Stern:      13,45 ft / 4,10 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,87 ft / 5,14 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95,9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101,2 %
   Waterplane Area: 43.518 Square feet or 4.043 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 189 lbs/sq ft or 922 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,25
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily



I save roughly 2200 tons. For the two ships I want to build (the 2nd probably will carry 1916 machinery and be just a half-sister), that means more than 4400 tons. 4BP, 2/3rds of one NUS half year BP production...
All that for one less gun...it's GREAT!. Thanks for that input, really improved the ship a lot (for the NUS anyway ;))

[mentat]

Yes - very nice

Apologies - I don't know where I saw a diag of Andre Doria with high mid turret barbette - but as your lovely pic shows the focsle did go well back to put Q turret in good dry position

I think now you have to build it :)

- but (sorry, sorry, sorry) - I am worried about the boats on the lowish quarterdeck - fragile eqpmt in heavy sea + potentially restrict forward arcs of your lovely X and Y turrets to prevent blast damage

How about - extending aft superstructure, move mainmast back then moving boats and derrick up a deck in front of the mainmast - sorry didn't mention earlier ... 

[mentat]

I must stop apologising - moving mainmast and boats will also give you space to shift the funnels back 20' or so - at the moment half of the time the poor sods in the foremast crows nest are being toasted and asphyxiated from the forward funnel - what's more they can't see the enemy ...

Renown and Repulse had a similar design fault which had to be corrected.

[Desertfox]

I for one liked the original design. It gave the ship a level of uniqueness now lost.

[Borys]

Very nice ships.
The RN Andrea Doria is pretty!
The guns' design is from Skoda - the shell weight is 1250 lbs.

Borys

[RAM]

I think now you have to build it :)

A bit late. If I had excess of BPs ,I'd go with the italian-like design. But now the 25000 ton version wins hands down. Economy sucks ;)

I've done some of the modifications you proposed, as they make sense, except for the foremast plart. The funnel is a tad behind it, and much lower than the observation point. There should be no such big problems imo...

pic

[Sachmle]

That is a pretty ship, but I think your MB barrels are too short. They are only 13.5"/L40, but they still seem short. Maybe purchase some 13.5"/L45 guns from abroad while researching your own model, then install domestic on the half-sister.

[mentat]

She will look splendid in the Regatta on the Rio del Plata ;D - I'm sure the CinC can't wait to take up residence on his new flagship!

I understand the lament from you and Desert Fox on the Italian design aspect - but hopefully if you have saved some $$$ - there will be scope for Italian features where they excel - style and creature comforts

Perhaps:

Carrera Marble Fireplaces and Bathrooms for the Admiral and VIP Cabins

Some of those Old fashioned Pizza Ovens in the Galley

For the Admiral - a Bugatti and a Speedboat with Bugatti engines!

A Stern Gallery - still relevant at this time and a nice period feature

A large Wine store - outdo the French

And under the rules I don't think you actually have to pay for the little luxury extras?

[Borys]

You should allocate miscelenous weight to at least some of those little extras.
:)
Borys

[maddox]

Mentat, France does so.   50 tons spend on the admirals quarters ain't abnormal.