Glorious French battlecruiser

[maddox]

Ok, comments noted.

On the main gun fire arcs and secundaries.  A drawing will make a lot more clear, but I went back to the original idea. Only a 10 gun secundary battery, but all centerline , raised.  The 6 37mm AA guns are just the sprinkles in the icing.

Montmedy, French Fast battleship laid down 1916

Displacement:
   34.997 t light; 37.029 t standard; 41.049 t normal; 44.265 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   793,96 ft / 787,40 ft x 104,99 ft x 30,51 ft (normal load)
   242,00 m / 240,00 m x 32,00 m  x 9,30 m

Armament:
      8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      6 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (3x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (2x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15.398 lbs / 6.984 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   472,44 ft / 144,00 m   20,50 ft / 6,25 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 92% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   472,44 ft / 144,00 m   28,35 ft / 8,64 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,25" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 114.367 shp / 85.318 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7.235 tons

Complement:
   1.441 - 1.874

Cost:
   £5,427 million / $21,709 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.780 tons, 4,3%
   Armour: 13.742 tons, 33,5%
      - Belts: 5.916 tons, 14,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 991 tons, 2,4%
      - Armament: 2.994 tons, 7,3%
      - Armour Deck: 3.533 tons, 8,6%
      - Conning Tower: 308 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 4.261 tons, 10,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14.714 tons, 35,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.052 tons, 14,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     57.758 lbs / 26.199 Kg = 34,5 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 9,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17
   Metacentric height 7,2 ft / 2,2 m
   Roll period: 16,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,49
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,570
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28,06 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,82 ft / 9,70 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Mid (50%):      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (18%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Stern:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,93 ft / 6,38 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154,1%
   Waterplane Area: 58.763 Square feet or 5.459 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 896 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,08
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons FC
2 * 25 tons  Enhanced Radio Aural Detection equipment
2 * 25 tons long range marconi
100 tons crew comfort
100 tons Flag facilities



Armor belt sloped 12°

On armor lay out.   The weather deck ain't the armor deck. The 6.25 meter high armor belt is nicely placed so the ship has protection , fully loaded or light.
When fully loaded, the belt is only 1.9m above the waterline, when light its 3.8m above the waterline.

This means at least 1 full deck is above the armor deck, and the barbettes are partialy in this unarmored part. One of the reasons these are as thick as the armor belt.

[Korpen]

Just as a sidenote, what motivates the build-up considering there is no realistic threats to France, and she is in the most secure position she have been in for at least 200 years?

[maddox]

Paranoia?

[mentat]

Or that Spanish 'Wargame' ? ....

[P3D]

Probably inspired by the strong battlecruiser component of the Irish Navy :P

[miketr]

Or that Spanish 'Wargame' ? ....

As an OOC comment the big Iberian AC's were able to just shove the French PC's out of the way whenever they felt like during the battle; the french screen couldn't do the same.  What would have happened with equal tonnage of PC's vs. BC's is hard to say but I doubt it would have gone well for the French even then.  In my opinion the French navy needs a far more powerful screen.  More DD's, more PC's and perhaps a BC element.

Michael

[mentat]

Now that Korpen has enquired re French objectives - it is also interesting to speculate on Iberia's

Interesting that a particular theme is evident first in the leak and then in an open communication?

Is Iberia seeking to influence France's future shipbuilding priorities?

BTW - has anything come of the High Level and Top Priority investigation into how the leak came about?

Re - the Sim

If the PC squadron is tasked with a critical mission such as fleet scouting - will it not seek to use its advantage of speed to tackle an obstacle like ACs - only 1/2 PCs are required to move forward and can do so at high speed - zig zag and manouever to avoid incoming fire - keeping a steady course to optimise return fire can readily be sacrificed in a rece mission esp. if range for their own guns is extreme

Not ideal - but perhaps what they are ready to do if required

[miketr]

The big AC's in question were HIIMS Fernando de Magallanes and HIIMS Vasco da Gama 23,500 light ton cruisers able to do 26.75 knots and armed with 12" guns.  As such the six french cruisers didn't have much of a speed advantage; while the Iberian cruisers had a massive firepower and armor advantage.  If the French cruisers were to attempt fight those ships they needed to close as fast as possible to get into torpedo range to use their eight torpedo's a piece.  If the French were to get around these ships they either needed more numbers or a much higher speed advantage. 

As to why Iberia did the fight...  feel free to speculate... you might even be right...  ;)

Michael

[mentat]

Big ACs? - now I check they have 8 x 12" and protection to match - that rates as BC to me

But there is still a 4 knot advantage - can't really say whether they can be avoided or not without seeing the battle plot

I certainly wasn't advocating taking them on directly - they're there to recon and that's what they're equipped for - so should endeavour to carry out the recon function - high speed evasive manouevring at range of more than 12000 yards - should minimise the risk - esp if only 1 does it with rest not too far for support

Arguably a  medium sized but fast ship is better suited to this - if your AC/BCs have a similar opponent - you probably get an immediate sub-battle rather than effective recon

[miketr]

Big ACs? - now I check they have 8 x 12" and protection to match - that rates as BC to me

Iberia rates such ships as Armored Cruisers.

But there is still a 4 knot advantage - can't really say whether they can be avoided or not without seeing the battle plot

The Demarce III  are 28 knot ships and the new Demarce IV are 31 knot ships.  France had the III's as per the provided OOB for the French Atlantic Fleet.

I certainly wasn't advocating taking them on directly - they're there to recon and that's what they're equipped for - so should endeavour to carry out the recon function - high speed evasive manouevring at range of more than 12000 yards - should minimise the risk - esp if only 1 does it with rest not too far for support

If you look at the battle the Iberian main body was 20 miles behind the scout group getting to within 12K yards of the AC's does nothing to find and ID the main body and gets them shot up for their efforts.  The French cruisers wanted to stay out of range of the Iberian AC's for the simple reason that if they take any 12" hits the risk of being crippled is rather high.  The Iberian main body put out a huge smoke cloud because of its coal fired nature but to ID ships required getting within 30,000  to 35,000 yards or so of it and that would mean getting within 5,000 yards or so of the AC's.  Thats a loosing idea.  What the French needed / wanted to do was get around the Iberian scout group.  The problem was one of numbers, fire power and battlefield geography.  The Iberian scout group was six ships, two of which were the AC's faced by six french cruisers.  So the edge was clearly with the Iberian Scout Group.  Also because the Scout Group is acting as long range screen all they had to do was react to French movements and keep the French back; to do that means just getting in their way.     

Arguably a  medium sized but fast ship is better suited to this - if your AC/BCs have a similar opponent - you probably get an immediate sub-battle rather than effective recon

The French problem was they just didn't have enough light ships; Iberia had four AC's and eight PC's vs. two HC's (old ships armed with two 12" guns in single mounts ) and six PC's.  Of course this was a fairly large chunk of the Iberian cruiser force but it was also nearly half of Frances modern Cruiser force.  France had for a long time focused on Big Ships; which is fine but its a choice with some problems.

Of course any war between France and Iberia is won or lost on Land with a massive edge to France.

Michael

[maddox]

With these ships around, Glorious france is needing an answer...

[mentat]

To be honest - I was far more interested in what lay behind the Wargame leak than in the details of the Sim itself (it's your Sim - you can run it as you like)

- you have stayed rather quiet on that!

In particular - was it a spy, a mole or a dastardly traitor? Will they face a firing squad or perhaps a promotion? ;)



Re - the Sim which I have now revisited so I know a bit better what I am talking about

Yes - if Demarce III - then no useful speed advantage

Given France has disadvantage in BBs and Big ACs - why are they accepting Battle front-on following the Airship recon. info? - are there no other options?

The 2 Big ACs (up to you what you call them, but the report misled me at the time, I think of such ships as BCs - they can join the main Battle) - do give an advtge in the Scouting phase

- but I am more impressed with their ability to join the Battle and concentrate on the enemy Flagship - I think this is more significant in the Sim and generally

This thread is all about proposed Big BCs/Fast BBs - so seems to be being addressed

Coming back to the Scouting situation


1. Probably the most vital info. was to confirm the Iberian Hvy Scouting Group is there - safest assumption is Main body is close behind

2. I'm not sure why the Demarce were initially all together

In this era pre Radar and all-weather aircraft - Recon is haphazard - there is a real possibility of 2 Fleets sailing right past each other - just over the horizon
(Nearly happened at Jutland - the Lt Crsrs of the 2 BC Scouting Forces only got in contact by both investigating a Danish steamer on their extreme wing)

So I would expect them to be spread out in a net but still in visual contact in perhaps 3 pairs (can rejoin for mutual support if req'd) - this would also give them more chance for 1 pair to manouever around any heavy opposition - which they anticipate

The problem in this situation - is that given Iberia force has more Cruisers in total - in doing so they could risk being cut-off

- they might get their addn'l info. but suffer for it getting back out - a different problem

Overall I can see several ways the Scouting phase could work out - but I can't see anything stopping the 2 Big ACs joining the Main Battle - which then makes it 10 on 5? - definitely not Cricket!!

[The Rock Doctor]

Oh, sure, Korpen, wake the sleeping elephant...

Mentat:  Yes, I call them armored cruisers too.  I've depicted the Colombians as having endured the nomenclature debate internally and decided that the ships continue the historical function of older ACs.

[Guinness]

Same for the CSA, although some things on the drawing board may lead to a new classification.

[mentat]

Gentlemen - they're your ships - please call them whatever you like - the key thing is what they can do ...