Glorious French battlecruiser

[miketr]

To be honest - I was far more interested in what lay behind the Wargame leak than in the details of the Sim itself (it's your Sim - you can run it as you like)

- you have stayed rather quiet on that!

In particular - was it a spy, a mole or a dastardly traitor? Will they face a firing squad or perhaps a promotion? ;)



Re - the Sim which I have now revisited so I know a bit better what I am talking about

Yes - if Demarce III - then no useful speed advantage

Correct on the speed issue...

Given France has disadvantage in BBs and Big ACs - why are they accepting Battle front-on following the Airship recon. info? - are there no other options?

Because they have 15" guns and the most powerful battleship in the world; in otherwords French ego.  The French could have choosen to do other things but the Iberian read on the French is that they wouldn't and when presented with a target they would go right after it.

The 2 Big ACs (up to you what you call them, but the report misled me at the time, I think of such ships as BCs - they can join the main Battle) - do give an advtge in the Scouting phase

They were designed to do as you describe but the older Iberian AC's have been used the same way in the Balkan War in Particular.

- but I am more impressed with their ability to join the Battle and concentrate on the enemy Flagship - I think this is more significant in the Sim and generally

Eight 12" guns is good firepower.

This thread is all about proposed Big BCs/Fast BBs - so seems to be being addressed

Coming back to the Scouting situation


1. Probably the most vital info. was to confirm the Iberian Hvy Scouting Group is there - safest assumption is Main body is close behind

The air recon confirmed that and the large smoke cloud scene from time to time also made that likely.

2. I'm not sure why the Demarce were initially all together

In this era pre Radar and all-weather aircraft - Recon is haphazard - there is a real possibility of 2 Fleets sailing right past each other - just over the horizon
(Nearly happened at Jutland - the Lt Crsrs of the 2 BC Scouting Forces only got in contact by both investigating a Danish steamer on their extreme wing)

So I would expect them to be spread out in a net but still in visual contact in perhaps 3 pairs (can rejoin for mutual support if req'd) - this would also give them more chance for 1 pair to manouever around any heavy opposition - which they anticipate

The French fleet had eight cruisers total... conctact was first made on the 12th by two such cruisers.

12th Iberian Fleet leaves Lisbon for Bilbao on north coast of Spain 650 miles away at 10 knots; to arrive in 65 hours.  Scout Group encounters two French Demarce III class cruisers 19 hours out of Lisbon.  French Cruisers signals French Atlantic Fleet at Brest of contact.  French Fleet sorties and airship is directed to area.  

The French called in the other cruisers and the fleet so by the time of the battle six of the eight had assembled; they were assumed to be in the atlantic attempting to enforce a blockade.

The problem in this situation - is that given Iberia force has more Cruisers in total - in doing so they could risk being cut-off

- they might get their addn'l info. but suffer for it getting back out - a different problem

Overall I can see several ways the Scouting phase could work out - but I can't see anything stopping the 2 Big ACs joining the Main Battle - which then makes it 10 on 5? - definitely not Cricket!!

Nod...  Again french ego with twenty eight 15" vs. thirty two 13" and 12" guns (ignoring the PDN's).

Michael

[maddox]

Montmedy is layed down, to a sleigthly  larger design, heavely influenced by the "never build" Occitanie.

[maddox]

A lot of tweaking, a lot of adapting, but in the end, she just became a lengthened, and 8 gunned Occitanie.

But, SHE's HUGE and very expensive.

Montmedy, French Fast battleship laid down 1916

Displacement:
   40.153 t light; 42.163 t standard; 46.534 t normal; 50.032 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   826,77 ft / 820,21 ft x 118,11 ft x 30,18 ft (normal load)
   252,00 m / 250,00 m x 36,00 m  x 9,20 m

Armament:
      8 - 14,96" / 380 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.807,79lbs / 820,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (10x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (1x2 guns), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 16.509 lbs / 7.488 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 115

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   434,71 ft / 132,50 m   23,00 ft / 7,01 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 82% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2,00" / 51 mm   434,71 ft / 132,50 m   27,83 ft / 8,48 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      14,0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,25" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 131.808 shp / 98.328 Kw = 28,50 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7.869 tons

Complement:
   1.583 - 2.059

Cost:
   £6,044 million / $24,176 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.906 tons, 4,1%
   Armour: 14.732 tons, 31,7%
      - Belts: 5.884 tons, 12,6%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 895 tons, 1,9%
      - Armament: 3.526 tons, 7,6%
      - Armour Deck: 4.092 tons, 8,8%
      - Conning Tower: 334 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 4.911 tons, 10,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 18.105 tons, 38,9%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6.381 tons, 13,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     70.116 lbs / 31.804 Kg = 41,9 x 15,0 " / 380 mm shells or 11,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
   Metacentric height 8,2 ft / 2,5 m
   Roll period: 17,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,557
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,94 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28,64 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32,15 ft / 9,80 m
      - Forecastle (25%):   21,82 ft / 6,65 m
      - Mid (50%):      21,82 ft / 6,65 m (21,65 ft / 6,60 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (22%):   21,65 ft / 6,60 m
      - Stern:      21,65 ft / 6,60 m
      - Average freeboard:   22,77 ft / 6,94 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177,9%
   Waterplane Area: 68.054 Square feet or 6.322 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 201 lbs/sq ft or 983 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,11
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons FC
2 * 25 tons  Enhanced Radio Aural Detection equipment
2 * 25 tons long range marconi
100 tons crew comfort
100 tons Flag facilities



Armor belt sloped 12°

[The Rock Doctor]

Other than the similar levels of protection and the main gun caliber, it seems like a very different ship than Occitanie.

I agree she's huge and expensive - a logical start for the French battlecruiser program.

[maddox]

She started out as the Occitanie springsharp file.

First I tried to retain the same armament, and just by shoving in a 50 meter hullpiece to upp her speed.
That delivered a very unseaworthy vessel. One going over 50Ktons light. And with a speed of 25 Kts.

After that the main guns came in 3 tripples, but that wasn't to my liking.

In the end, the 4 twins- the same as the Marats- and the same secundary armament as Occitanie -20 140mm guns in twins, and 2 extra as bloodpressure riser was opted for.
(I rather forget to remove that twin after the change from 3 tripples to 4 twins) .

The rest is just changes to the hull to get the ship to 40Ktons and get her seakeeping up to French standards.  The speed -by accident became one of the few half kts ships I have- 28.5 kts.
Range and cruise speed is the same as the Demarce IIIb's.

Main disadvantage. It will take 49 months to complete her. Meaning march 1920 before she's ready.

[mentat]

Good to see you are going ahead - puts the Cat among the Pigeons as it were! :D

Will be very interesting to see how the other major players respond ....

Out of interest - because this area appeals so much - I had just simmed a quite similar ship and also reached 42000 standard - it is a bit shorter - 785' and a bit more protection (armour = 34% as future proofing of a big expensive asset) - but overall I prefer yours - esp. wider beam and shallower draft giving steadier gun platform and a bit more torp. protn

- a bit like your Bismarck to my Vanguard

Another aspect - after that Ersatz Preussen nonsense - I simmed larger 28 knot Fast BBs (these are 825' x 108 or 116) - with 10 (334) or 12 x 15" (4x3) to see just how $$$$ they would be - with further slight increments in armour (to future proof yet more expensive/precious assets!) - they came out at 46,200 (GBP 6.7m) and 52,200 standard (GBP 7.8m)

   - somehow I think the 8 x 15" at 28 knots will set the standard for a while ...

  (but I did like the 334)

[The Rock Doctor]

Now come on, we don't need anybody encouraging Mario.  You're supposed to tell him that the armor only needs to be 6" thick, or something like that.

As to other player reaction - well, it'll be 1918 before I'm in a position to lay down any new capital ships, so we'll see. 

[mentat]

Just drug all the wine and steal the Ship! ;D

[The Rock Doctor]

Do I look like the kind of person who'd do that?

[RAM]

should we answer that question? ;)

[The Rock Doctor]

Only if your answer is, "No!  Of course not!"

[RAM]

then I guess I won't answer  ::)

;D

[mentat]

Alternatively - blow it up on Bastille Day - a Glorious French Firework! ;D

To cover (their a***s) themselves the French Authorities will of course immediately announce this as a deliberate act of National Celebration - and henceforth will be required to blow up a Large Expensive Battleship every year in Commemoration of La Glorious Revolution ......

[Blooded]

To cover (their a***s) themselves the French Authorities will of course immediately announce this as a deliberate act of National Celebration - and henceforth will be required to blow up a Large Expensive Battleship every year in Commemoration of La Glorious Revolution ......

Lovely!  ;D  Ohhh Ahhhh!

[mentat]

Rock Docter - BTW - you are waiting until 1918 - mmm  -  so what Tech Level do you have up your sleeve by then??!!