Ottoman Large Torpedo Boat Request

[miketr]

The Sultans Navy is looking for designs for a Torpedo Boat.

Requirements

Max of 750 light tons
Armed with 105mm or 120mm guns in single mounts
Laydown date of 1915: Engine Year 1912  (100% coal fired)
Speed At least 30 Knots
Torpedoes 17.7" / 450mm weapons
Range Atleast 3,000 @ 10 knots
Seakeeping no lower than 1.0
Misc weight: 10 tons plus enough for torpedo's

And

If possible to no larger than 120 meters

Last Ottoman TB Design from 1911
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=733.msg25013#msg25013

[Korpen]

The Sultans Navy is looking for designs for a Torpedo Boat.

Requirements

Max of 750 light tons
Armed with 105mm or 120mm guns in single mounts
Laydown date of 1915: Engine Year 1912  (100% coal fired)

Not even the oil sprey (10% Oil) that is allowed without the oil burner tech?
Speed At least 30 Knots

Seakeeping no lower than 1.0

At what speed? Is it at least 1,0 at 30 kts, or is it at top speed (effectively ruling out designs faster then 32-33kts)?

[Desertfox]

Based on the Lavi II design. There's quite a bit of growth potential. Also why the all coal fired designs? I would think that the Ottomans have more than enough oil to meet their needs.


Lavi II, New Zion Destroyer laid down 1912

Displacement:
   676 t light; 722 t standard; 794 t normal; 851 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   310.00 ft / 310.00 ft x 28.00 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
   94.49 m / 94.49 m x 8.53 m  x 2.44 m

Armament:
      3 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
      2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 0.59" / 15.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.10lbs / 0.05kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 193 lbs / 87 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   6 - 17.7" / 449.58 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 16,757 shp / 12,501 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 129 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   74 - 97

Cost:
   £0.098 million / $0.392 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 24 tons, 3.0 %
   Armour: 3 tons, 0.4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 3 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 387 tons, 48.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 231 tons, 29.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 118 tons, 14.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 30 tons, 3.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     198 lbs / 90 Kg = 5.6 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
   Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 10.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.07 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.61 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 71
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Forecastle (30 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (40 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (8.00 ft / 2.44 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Stern:      8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.88 ft / 3.32 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 186.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 82.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,343 Square feet or 496 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 47 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 121 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.51
      - Longitudinal: 1.09
      - Overall: 0.55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[miketr]

1.0 seakeeping @ top speed.  If you look at the other nations in the Med or Black Sea.

The Hapsburgs 31 knots @ 1.0 sea keeping for their 1,000 ton ships
The Iberians 30 knots @ 1.2 sea keeping for their 1,000 ton ships
The Italians 29.5 & 30 knots @ 1.0 sea keeping for their 1,000 ton ships
Russia has two 30 knot DD's one a poor seaboat and one a 1.0 for 1,000 tons
Ukraine has a 28 knot TB @ 1.0 sea keeping for a 750 ton ship.

The Ottomans need to build against these ships and be able to keep up with them.  (I don't want to have to compare designs to see who has a better sea keeping at X speed; anything less than 1.0 sea keeping at top speed is going to be ignored.)

10% oil would be fine as thats within their tech base.

[miketr]

Based on the Lavi II design. There's quite a bit of growth potential. Also why the all coal fired designs? I would think that the Ottomans have more than enough oil to meet their needs.

They don't have the tech to do otherwise and I can't do anything about it till they are caught up.

Michael

[Korpen]

The design might not match ottoman requirement on the issue of sea keeping at top speed and she uses oil spray for reaching top speed (90% coal). However she do exceed the speed requirement by a wide margin, infect she would be the fastest ships in the Mediterranean.
Her range at top speed is however just 140nm, but increasing bukerage would lower her speed.
She is significantly faster they any possible adversaries, and she match or is superior to them all when it comes to armament.  
The gunshields are thick enough to stop anti-personnel shrapnel and small arms fire as well as serving as weather shields.

Her seakeeping is 1,0 @ 30,5 kts, and 1,04 @ 30 kts (for comparison at "baseline" speed).


Koninklijke Mij De Schelde Type 21, Ottoman Jager laid down 1912

Displacement:
   750 t light; 779 t standard; 855 t normal; 916 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   311,68 ft / 311,68 ft x 25,97 ft x 9,71 ft (normal load)
   95,00 m / 95,00 m x 7,92 m  x 2,96 m

Armament:
     4 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,27lbs / 16,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 141 lbs / 64 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 25 543 shp / 19 055 Kw = 33,00 kts
   Range 3 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 137 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   78 - 102

Cost:
   £0,108 million / $0,430 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 18 tons, 2,1 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0,2 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0,2 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 475 tons, 55,5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 237 tons, 27,7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 105 tons, 12,3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 2,3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     158 lbs / 71 Kg = 4,5 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,14
   Metacentric height 0,8 ft / 0,3 m
   Roll period: 11,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,29
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,82

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,381
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 88
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20,34 ft / 6,20 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   16,08 ft / 4,90 m
      - Mid (25 %):      16,08 ft / 4,90 m (7,87 ft / 2,40 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7,87 ft / 2,40 m
      - Stern:      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   10,33 ft / 3,15 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 197,2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 69,4 %
   Waterplane Area: 4 936 Square feet or 459 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 36 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 124 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,16
      - Overall: 0,54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[miketr]

Look at the last class of TB this has 50% more range than that one.  Also the Turks are limited to twin torp tubes are you assuming three twin mounts?  Would there be the deck space for that and four gun mounts?

Michael

[Korpen]

Look at the last class of TB this has 50% more range than that one.  Also the Turks are limited to twin torp tubes are you assuming three twin mounts?  Would there be the deck space for that and four gun mounts?

Michael

Like I said, I know range is an issue, but at the same time I do think that trying to compromise with DDs only lead to ships unsuited to any mission; one should concentrate on a single aspect were the ships will be capable. This design concentrate on being useful as a torpedo fighter, hence the focus on speed. I will post a more "Dutch" DD design when I get back home (visiting my parent ATM, no SS on this laptop).

As for deckaspace, did a drawing of a DD for china with similar parameters. : http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3049.msg32965#msg32965

[The Rock Doctor]

From a yard in Khazaria, again.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1912

Displacement:
   746 t light; 777 t standard; 860 t normal; 926 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   324.65 ft / 321.52 ft x 28.54 ft x 8.20 ft (normal load)
   98.95 m / 98.00 m x 8.70 m  x 2.50 m

Armament:
      3 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
      2 - 0.43" / 11.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.04lbs / 0.02kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 106 lbs / 48 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   6 - 17.7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,000 shp / 14,920 Kw = 31.08 kts
   Range 3,300nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 149 tons)

Complement:
   79 - 103

Cost:
   £0.101 million / $0.405 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 13 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 7 tons, 0.8 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 7 tons, 0.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 457 tons, 53.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 250 tons, 29.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 115 tons, 13.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 18 tons, 2.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     249 lbs / 113 Kg = 7.0 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.61
   Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 9.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.11
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.26 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.93 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.72 ft / 5.40 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17.72 ft / 5.40 m (15.75 ft / 4.80 m aft of break)
      - Mid (40 %):      15.75 ft / 4.80 m (7.87 ft / 2.40 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7.87 ft / 2.40 m
      - Stern:      7.87 ft / 2.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.42 ft / 3.48 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 186.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,649 Square feet or 525 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 46 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 121 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.14
      - Overall: 0.54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[miketr]

I will go with Korpen's design for the Turks...

Michael

[Korpen]

I will go with Korpen's design for the Turks...

Michael

Ok..

But i said i would submit a "Dutch-style" DD design, so here it is:

G-Class, Ottoman Jager laid down 1912

Displacement:
   750 t light; 787 t standard; 920 t normal; 1 027 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300,37 ft / 295,28 ft x 26,25 ft x 10,50 ft (normal load)
   91,55 m / 90,00 m x 8,00 m  x 3,20 m

Armament:
      5 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 46,30lbs / 21,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 232 lbs / 105 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140
   4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18 817 shp / 14 038 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 3 500nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 240 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   83 - 108

Cost:
   £0,117 million / $0,467 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 33 tons, 3,6 %
   Armour: 5 tons, 0,6 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 5 tons, 0,6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 448 tons, 48,7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 245 tons, 26,6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 170 tons, 18,4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 2,2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     210 lbs / 95 Kg = 4,0 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,36
   Metacentric height 1,2 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,41
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,396
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (30 %):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Stern:      9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   10,87 ft / 3,31 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 186,2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80,3 %
   Waterplane Area: 4 759 Square feet or 442 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 48 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 127 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,45
      - Overall: 0,55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[miketr]

Hmmm... the firepower edge of the 2nd design is something to think about.


Michael

[Korpen]

Hmmm... the firepower edge of the 2nd design is something to think about.


Michael

Indeed, firepower is never a bad thing.
But I think in the end it depends on how they are intended to be used. If they are to be able to attack aggressively (against larger ships), with torpedoes as the main weapon, then I would go for the faster one. If her function would be more skirmishing with her equals, then I would go for the well armed one. Her firepower advantage over potential opposing TBs/DDs in the med is significant (with the exception of some Italian boats), allowing her to dominate in smaller ship combat.

[miketr]

As I see it the Ottomans view the Aegean as being hostile waters in any future war.  At the same time there is no reason that anyone else should have a free ride there.  My intention is to create a navy thats mission is to deny other forces access to Ottoman Coastal waters.  Hence the focus on mines, cruisers and torpedo boats.  So going after large ships is the primary mission but running into enemy torpedo boats and cruisers is very likely.

Michael

[Korpen]

As I see it the Ottomans view the Aegean as being hostile waters in any future war.  At the same time there is no reason that anyone else should have a free ride there.  My intention is to create a navy thats mission is to deny other forces access to Ottoman Coastal waters.  Hence the focus on mines, cruisers and torpedo boats.  So going after large ships is the primary mission but running into enemy torpedo boats and cruisers is very likely.

Michael

A mix then: with "gun" DDs on patrol to engage and destroy enemy light forces, and "Torpedo" DDs making quick raids as well as attacks on larger enemy ships that are brought in to support their outgunned light forces?