firanji battleships formaly cdbb/small battle ship + new battle ship

[Sachmle]

Now your Block coefficent (BC) is HUGE @ 0.742!!!!

[Jefgte]

- Decrease BC & increase draught (6.15m is not enought for a 18 000t BB).

- To have more seaboat quality (1.20) , increase - Forecastle :   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
Test 5m to 5.5m for ex.


;)

[Korpen]

- Decrease BC & increase draught (6.15m is not enought for a 18 000t BB).

Agree with that, the ship is too shallow for her size.

- To have more seaboat quality (1.20) , increase - Forecastle :   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
Test 5m to 5.5m for ex.

That is pure luxury, any seaboat rating of over 1,0 is more then good enough. Values over 1,0 for cruisers and BBs are in the "ice-cream machines & beer cellars" category, nice to have, but not worth scarifying capability for in a ship built on tight budget.

the role is to A be as scary and B shell stuff coastal abilitys are prefered due to the nature of the firanjian fleet idealy i would build  to work as 1 pair and one other to replace the older battle ships in the fleet

If you are thinking about using them for close-to shore operation, i would advise against it as that is very dangerous mission due to the ship going very slow of stationary in waters that are shallow and easy to mine (as well as exposed to subs and MTBs). That kind of missions is what old BBs can be used for as they are more expendable, as well as losing relatively less of their strength is that environment.

Remember that it is risky for a small power to larger BBs and the like. The danger is that one puts too many of ones eggs in a single basket, resulting in fear of using the ship for action due to the huge blow her loss would be.

That said the designs are improving (but on the sad side; your 18 000ton ship got no significant advantage of the 16 000ton one)

[sgdn]

well hows this?

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1916

Displacement:
   16,307 t light; 17,344 t standard; 18,374 t normal; 19,198 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   524.93 ft / 524.93 ft x 82.02 ft x 25.89 ft (normal load)
   160.00 m / 160.00 m x 25.00 m  x 7.89 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.99" / 330 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,096.51lbs / 497.37kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      12 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread
      12 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 10,601 lbs / 4,808 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   2.91" / 74 mm   164.04 ft / 50.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   6.56 ft / 2.00 m
     Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.38" / 35 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   29.53 ft / 9.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      9.84" / 250 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm   2.95" / 75 mm      2.95" / 75 mm
   3rd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      2.95" / 75 mm
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 12.80" / 325 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 26,499 shp / 19,768 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,854 tons

Complement:
   788 - 1,025

Cost:
   £2.982 million / $11.926 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,325 tons, 7.2 %
   Armour: 7,076 tons, 38.5 %
      - Belts: 3,047 tons, 16.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 543 tons, 3.0 %
      - Armament: 1,610 tons, 8.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,684 tons, 9.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 192 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 987 tons, 5.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,518 tons, 35.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,067 tons, 11.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21,016 lbs / 9,533 Kg = 19.2 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 3.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 16.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.577
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.40 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Stern:      13.78 ft / 4.20 m
      - Average freeboard:   13.57 ft / 4.14 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 30,819 Square feet or 2,863 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 766 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.29
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons
250t fire con
25t big radio
50t flag stuff
50t tbd

[sgdn]

i had an idea based on this

http://www.brigademodels.co.uk/Frames/VAN/Items/VAN-510.html

ok so here is Quseir's replacement

Circle, firanji bb laid down 1950 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   14,347 t light; 15,332 t standard; 15,581 t normal; 15,781 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229.66 ft / 229.66 ft x 229.66 ft x 18.04 ft (normal load)
   70.00 m / 70.00 m x 70.00 m  x 5.50 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.99" / 330 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,096.51lbs / 497.37kg shells, 1950 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      8 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (4x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1950 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1950 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 9,545 lbs / 4,329 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 125

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   229.66 ft / 70.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   2.95" / 75 mm      5.91" / 150 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,092 shp / 3,799 Kw = 12.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 7.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 449 tons

Complement:
   696 - 906

Cost:
   £11.969 million / $47.875 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,193 tons, 7.7 %
   Armour: 4,935 tons, 31.7 %
      - Belts: 1,646 tons, 10.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,076 tons, 6.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,055 tons, 13.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 159 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 190 tons, 1.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,679 tons, 49.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,235 tons, 7.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     33,483 lbs / 15,188 Kg = 30.5 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 8.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.73
   Metacentric height 42.6 ft / 13.0 m
   Roll period: 14.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 87 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.24

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.573
   Length to Beam Ratio: 1.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 65.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 168.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 37,612 Square feet or 3,494 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 209 lbs/sq ft or 1,019 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.80
      - Longitudinal: 7.93
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons
250t firecon
25t big radio
50t specilist equipment [pumps, dc equipment, crane, spotting gear
25t cables and anchors telephone cable

and it fits in a type 0 slipway and drydock

[Jefgte]

The great default of this kind of ship is the slow speed.
12kts is very very short
but, She is good for harbor protection.


;)

[Carthaginian]

Also, I don't know if there is enough room for four twin 13" turrets on there.
Most predreadnoughts were cramped with twin 12" turrets and casemated secondaries on about 100 feet more.

[P3D]

It would not fit the everyday drydock but...

Firanji had round battleships before, so they should have adequate facilities.

Now comes a few problems. The belt armor should be ~110m long as the circumference of the ship is not 140m but 220 - but you cannot do that. Solution - make the belt accordingly thicker.

Set a cruising speed of 10-12kts. Your machinery weight is negligible, give it the speed of your battleline. For coastal defense it is too expensive - and a fort is much useful for that purpose.

Of course, spotters would have great difficulty to determine in which direction the ship is heading steaming.

[Sachmle]

My question would be what could you do w/ that tonnage w/ a more "normal" layout?

[sgdn]

with a normal layout a upgraded Umma would be my gess [springsharp is mia at this time]

Quseir is round

so reduce lenth of belt to 110m and double the thickness

round ship machinery weight is always huge in comparison to normal ships because of all the beam but surviveabilty and the fact its a pain to figer out which way its going make up for that

layout it will not be roomy but it all should fit with some work and tweeking

[The Rock Doctor]

Your previous, conventional battleship, for about 2,000 t more, is far more capable than this round ship.

[sgdn]

version 1.1

Circle, firanji bb laid down 1950 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   16,165 t light; 17,244 t standard; 17,510 t normal; 17,722 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229.66 ft / 229.66 ft x 229.66 ft x 20.24 ft (normal load)
   70.00 m / 70.00 m x 70.00 m  x 6.17 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.99" / 330 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,096.51lbs / 497.37kg shells, 1950 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      16 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1950 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1950 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 10,215 lbs / 4,633 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 125

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.5" / 471 mm   229.66 ft / 70.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   4.65" / 118 mm   229.66 ft / 70.00 m   6.56 ft / 2.00 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      3.11" / 79 mm   229.66 ft / 70.00 m   20.34 ft / 6.20 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   2.95" / 75 mm      5.91" / 150 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5,377 shp / 4,012 Kw = 12.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 7.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 478 tons

Complement:
   760 - 989

Cost:
   £13.028 million / $52.112 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,277 tons, 7.3 %
   Armour: 6,789 tons, 38.8 %
      - Belts: 2,844 tons, 16.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 538 tons, 3.1 %
      - Armament: 1,180 tons, 6.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,057 tons, 11.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 172 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 200 tons, 1.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,549 tons, 43.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,345 tons, 7.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     37,255 lbs / 16,899 Kg = 34.0 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 14.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.74
   Metacentric height 43.1 ft / 13.1 m
   Roll period: 14.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 88 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.574
   Length to Beam Ratio: 1.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 37,647 Square feet or 3,498 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 203 lbs/sq ft or 990 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.79
      - Longitudinal: 7.93
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

main Armour is 300m
upper  Armour is 75mm
torpedo bulthead is
diffrence is to acount for the fact the ship is a Circle


Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons
250t firecon
25t big radio
15t telephone cable, extra ships boat, obsevation equipment
50t tbd

[sgdn]

firanjian bb v12.45893 [i think]
the pic is a wip i need to add the bulges


house 2, firanji bb laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   17,333 t light; 18,440 t standard; 19,667 t normal; 20,650 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 78.74 ft (Bulges 85.30 ft) x 24.61 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 170.00 m x 24.00 m (Bulges 26.00 m)  x 7.50 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.99" / 330 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,096.51lbs / 497.37kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.97kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1917 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 10,395 lbs / 4,715 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.8" / 325 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      0.98" / 25 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   19.69 ft / 6.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.8" / 325 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      7.87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   3.94" / 100 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 12.80" / 325 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 27,350 shp / 20,403 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,210 tons

Complement:
   829 - 1,079

Cost:
   £3.347 million / $13.387 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,299 tons, 6.6 %
   Armour: 7,320 tons, 37.2 %
      - Belts: 3,455 tons, 17.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 259 tons, 1.3 %
      - Armament: 1,670 tons, 8.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,735 tons, 8.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 201 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,019 tons, 5.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,294 tons, 37.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,335 tons, 11.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     24,813 lbs / 11,255 Kg = 22.6 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 4.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 17.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.32

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.588
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.54 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m (14.76 ft / 4.50 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m (14.76 ft / 4.50 m before break)
      - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.24 ft / 4.95 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,761 Square feet or 2,951 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 161 lbs/sq ft or 788 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.29
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons
250t fire con
25t big radio
50t flag stuff [large]
75t radar [1905 level]

so?