Fast Battleship - Habsburg style

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I looked at the OTL Izmail and simmed this ...
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   26 894 t light; 28 449 t standard; 30 258 t normal; 31 706 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   620,48 ft / 620,00 ft x 98,00 ft x 30,00 ft (normal load)
   189,12 m / 188,98 m x 29,87 m  x 9,14 m

Armament:
      8 - 15,00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2 000,00lbs / 907,18kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      14 - 4,50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50,00lbs / 22,68kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     14 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 4,50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50,00lbs / 22,68kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all forward
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns in single mounts, 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft
   Weight of broadside 16 904 lbs / 7 668 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   390,00 ft / 118,87 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   230,00 ft / 70,10 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   390,00 ft / 118,87 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 97% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   390,00 ft / 118,87 m   44,00 ft / 13,41 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   4,00" / 102 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 67 348 shp / 50 242 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 7 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3 256 tons (33% coal)

Complement:
   1 146 - 1 491

Cost:
   £5,151 million / $20,603 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 791 tons, 5,9%
   Armour: 11 070 tons, 36,6%
      - Belts: 5 087 tons, 16,8%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 952 tons, 3,1%
      - Armament: 2 295 tons, 7,6%
      - Armour Deck: 2 423 tons, 8,0%
      - Conning Tower: 314 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 2 768 tons, 9,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10 815 tons, 35,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 365 tons, 11,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     34 397 lbs / 15 602 Kg = 20,4 x 15,0 " / 381 mm shells or 5,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 5,8 ft / 1,8 m
   Roll period: 17,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,56
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,08

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,581
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,90 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27,39 ft / 8,35 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   25,00 ft / 7,62 m
      - Mid (20%):      24,00 ft / 7,32 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,99 ft / 5,48 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116,1%
   Waterplane Area: 43 655 Square feet or 4 056 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 890 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,41
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[Sachmle]

Nice ship Borys...good for chasing older BCs and outrunning most BBs.

[Guinness]

Interesting freeboard measurements. I'm trying to imagine how the main armament would look. I guess you'd have an APQX sort of arrangement with two superstructure/funnel "islands"?

You've certainly exacted a lot of performance from a hull of that size....

[P3D]

Why choose a speed that is 3kts faster than your battleline? 

[Borys]

Ahoj!
1 - Guiness:
How it looks like:
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/MK/2000_03/Draw/94.jpg

I plucked the dimensions from mid air, though. And I skipped the lower level of the fore casemattes.
I usually go for 16' freeboard, as it makes it easy to calculate Belt widths:
- Main Belt, 16 feet, 8 above and 8 below the WL
- Upper Belt, 8 feet, a (reasonably) comfortable deck height

The "f'castle" (aka rise forward of midbreak) here is inspired by the original. And good for seakeeping I suppose. I didn't have the heart (and time) to fiddle with the design to get the 70% "fire platform" rating.

2 - P3D:
Well, three knots faster IS three knots faster.
And if I build a Division or Squadron of these, they'll operate at that speed.

Borys

[Borys]

Using the 13,5/45 guns. Faster!
:)

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   26 252 t light; 27 522 t standard; 29 300 t normal; 30 723 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   620,52 ft / 620,00 ft x 98,00 ft x 29,00 ft (normal load)
   189,14 m / 188,98 m x 29,87 m  x 8,84 m

Armament:
      8 - 13,50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1 400,00lbs / 635,03kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      14 - 4,50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50,00lbs / 22,68kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     14 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 4,50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50,00lbs / 22,68kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all forward
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns in single mounts, 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft
   Weight of broadside 12 104 lbs / 5 490 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   395,00 ft / 120,40 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   225,00 ft / 68,58 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   395,00 ft / 120,40 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 98% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   395,00 ft / 120,40 m   44,00 ft / 13,41 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   4,00" / 102 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 89 893 shp / 67 060 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 7 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3 201 tons (33% coal)

Complement:
   1 119 - 1 455

Cost:
   £4,647 million / $18,589 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 333 tons, 4,6%
   Armour: 10 912 tons, 37,2%
      - Belts: 5 123 tons, 17,5%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 965 tons, 3,3%
      - Armament: 2 092 tons, 7,1%
      - Armour Deck: 2 425 tons, 8,3%
      - Conning Tower: 307 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 3 695 tons, 12,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9 862 tons, 33,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 048 tons, 10,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     34 090 lbs / 15 463 Kg = 27,7 x 13,5 " / 343 mm shells or 5,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 5,8 ft / 1,8 m
   Roll period: 17,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 63 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,99

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,582
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,90 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,00 ft / 9,14 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   27,00 ft / 8,23 m
      - Mid (25%):      27,00 ft / 8,23 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,99 ft / 5,79 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125,3%
   Waterplane Area: 43 696 Square feet or 4 060 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 166 lbs/sq ft or 810 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,36
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Jefgte]

...Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,99...

...Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather...

She could'nt maintain 27kts in heavy sea


;)

[Borys]

If I do build this class, I''ll have to live with that ...
Borys

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Re 3 knots - the HSM Dreadnaught also gained 3 knots on the previous battleline ...
Borys

[Borys]

Just for kicks:
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1917 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   27 477 t light; 28 824 t standard; 30 661 t normal; 32 131 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   640,52 ft / 640,00 ft x 98,00 ft x 29,00 ft (normal load)
   195,23 m / 195,07 m x 29,87 m  x 8,84 m

Armament:
      8 - 13,50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1 400,00lbs / 635,03kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      8 - 7,50" / 191 mm guns in single mounts, 220,00lbs / 99,79kg shells, 1917 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns in single mounts, 1,00lbs / 0,45kg shells, 1917 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft
   Weight of broadside 12 964 lbs / 5 880 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   405,00 ft / 123,44 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   235,00 ft / 71,63 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   8,00" / 203 mm   405,00 ft / 123,44 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 97% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   405,00 ft / 123,44 m   44,00 ft / 13,41 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14,0" / 356 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   6,00" / 152 mm   4,00" / 102 mm      2,00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 91 238 shp / 68 064 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 7 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3 307 tons (33% coal)

Complement:
   1 158 - 1 506

Cost:
   £4,905 million / $19,620 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 442 tons, 4,7%
   Armour: 11 303 tons, 36,9%
      - Belts: 5 254 tons, 17,1%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 989 tons, 3,2%
      - Armament: 2 221 tons, 7,2%
      - Armour Deck: 2 522 tons, 8,2%
      - Conning Tower: 317 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 3 750 tons, 12,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10 533 tons, 34,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 184 tons, 10,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     36 063 lbs / 16 358 Kg = 29,3 x 13,5 " / 343 mm shells or 6,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 5,8 ft / 1,8 m
   Roll period: 17,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,590
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,53 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25,30 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,00 ft / 9,14 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   27,00 ft / 8,23 m
      - Mid (28%):      27,00 ft / 8,23 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,32 ft / 5,89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129,7%
   Waterplane Area: 45 445 Square feet or 4 222 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 170 lbs/sq ft or 830 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 1,32
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Warning: Mount cannot be below freeboard deck - 2nd battery



The secondaries are like on this ship, without the weatherdeck pair:
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/MK/2000_03/Draw/96.jpg

[Jefgte]

- Stem:      30,00 ft / 9,14 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   27,00 ft / 8,23 m
      - Mid (28%):      27,00 ft / 8,23 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m

8.23-4.88 = 3.35m between 2 decks (?)

[Borys]

I had to improve the seaworthiness somehow :)
Maybe at the "break" deck levels change - the floor going up two feet or so, and the deck just below gaining one foot to its height?
I can also stack more bunks ...
Borys

[Korpen]

...Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,99...

...Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather...

She could'nt maintain 27kts in heavy sea


;)

Why not? seakeeping have nothing directly with ability to maintain top speed.
Of all springsharp numbers, seakeeping is the least well defined and most relative. But going by associated numbers such as steadiness and stability, I would say that seakeeping is allot more about comfortable motions in the sea and perhaps the ability to be on deck in severe weather. Imo the single most important thing for maintaining speed in heavy weather would be size, a 30 000ton ship with a seakeeping of 0,7 would be able to go full speed into weather that would smash a 1000ton 2,0 seakeeping ship to pieces.

[Jefgte]

seakeeping have nothing directly with ability to maintain top speed.

for me, yes.

Your 30.000t BB will roll and pitch.
That's not a good platform for the guns at top speed.

(That kind of ship, cruiser or BB, is not accepted in Peruvian Navy.)