Kingdom ships for export.

[Korpen]

Been playing with some designs for a foreign customer, and looking for thoughts.

The raised forecastle gives them better far better speed and comfort in seaway than just the seakeeping rating would make some think.
The differences are fairly minor, and the main reason for the 460 ton version is if type 0 dry-dock capability will be necessary.


Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1916

Displacement:
   500 t light; 520 t standard; 591 t normal; 648 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   259,19 ft / 259,19 ft x 21,60 ft x 9,73 ft (normal load)
   79,00 m / 79,00 m x 6,59 m  x 2,97 m

Armament:
      3 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,27lbs / 16,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 106 lbs / 48 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140
   5 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 19 774 shp / 14 752 Kw = 32,00 kts
   Range 3 810nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 128 tons

Complement:
   59 - 77

Cost:
   £0,117 million / $0,470 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 13 tons, 2,2 %
   Armour: 3 tons, 0,4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 3 tons, 0,4 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 308 tons, 52,2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 167 tons, 28,3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 91 tons, 15,5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 8 tons, 1,4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     111 lbs / 50 Kg = 3,1 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
   Metacentric height 0,6 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 11,4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,31
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,79

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,380
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,10 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 71
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,86 ft / 5,75 m
      - Forecastle (22 %):   15,75 ft / 4,80 m (7,22 ft / 2,20 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      7,22 ft / 2,20 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7,22 ft / 2,20 m
      - Stern:      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   9,57 ft / 2,92 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 186,8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 44,7 %
   Waterplane Area: 3 414 Square feet or 317 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 37 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 111 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,77
      - Overall: 0,56
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Korpen]

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1916

Displacement:
   460 t light; 477 t standard; 544 t normal; 597 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229,66 ft / 229,66 ft x 19,14 ft x 10,50 ft (normal load)
   70,00 m / 70,00 m x 5,84 m  x 3,20 m

Armament:
      3 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm guns in single mounts, 19,84lbs / 9,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
   Weight of broadside 60 lbs / 27 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   6 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 18 083 shp / 13 490 Kw = 31,00 kts
   Range 3 700nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 120 tons

Complement:
   56 - 73

Cost:
   £0,103 million / $0,414 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 8 tons, 1,4 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0,4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0,4 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 290 tons, 53,2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 152 tons, 28,0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 84 tons, 15,4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 8 tons, 1,5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     103 lbs / 47 Kg = 5,0 x 3,5 " / 88 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,05
   Metacentric height 0,5 ft / 0,1 m
   Roll period: 11,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 47 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,29
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,78

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,412
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 70 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Forecastle (21 %):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m (7,87 ft / 2,40 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      7,87 ft / 2,40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7,87 ft / 2,40 m
      - Stern:      9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   9,90 ft / 3,02 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 184,6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 24,2 %
   Waterplane Area: 2 727 Square feet or 253 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 38 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 106 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 2,90
      - Overall: 0,59
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Guinness]

The CSA would have serious reservations about the blind forward arc of the 460 tonner, but the 500 tonner is very interesting. If the 500 tonner could be reworked a bit for Confederate requirements (see below), we might consider ordering a flotilla.

Confederate requirements:

- 2x3.5" 20 pounder guns (A and Y positions)
- 1 triple 21 inch (2 tons per torpedo) torpedo mount where the twin mount is in the illustration
- 1 or 2 twin CSA 1" MG mounts, with the single mount superfiring Y position, or with two, superfiring both A and Y
- Enough misc weight for fire control or long-range wireless.
- Seaboat quality of .75 on the same speed

A tall order, I know,  but we'd be seriously interested.

[maddox]

I'm afraid the misc weight considerations make it impossible.

Nebelung, French Export Destroyer -Dutch engine- laid down 1916

Displacement:
   500 t light; 514 t standard; 601 t normal; 671 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229,66 ft / 229,66 ft x 21,16 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   70,00 m / 70,00 m x 6,45 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      2 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mount
     on side amidships
   Weight of broadside 22 lbs / 10 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 0,0" / 0 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17.279 shp / 12.890 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 3.200nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 157 tons

Complement:
   59 - 78

Cost:
   £0,105 million / $0,421 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 318 tons, 52,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 149 tons, 24,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 101 tons, 16,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 31 tons, 5,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     135 lbs / 61 Kg = 12,9 x 2,8 " / 70 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,27
   Metacentric height 0,8 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 10,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 49 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,06
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,76

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,440
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,85 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 72 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Forecastle (22%):   15,75 ft / 4,80 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50%):      8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Stern:      8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   9,92 ft / 3,02 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81,4%
   Waterplane Area: 3.075 Square feet or 286 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 45%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 105 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,51
      - Longitudinal: 2,26
      - Overall: 0,59
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Guinness]

the french ship may have a little more range (3200 at 14 knots vs. 3700 at 12 knots), and is shipping 6 torpedoes, so that may or may not make a difference.

I'll grant though that the FC/Wireless requirement is a tough one. I've been trying to design a Torpedo Ram to similar specifications on 500(ish) tons, and haven't been able to get it yet either. We Confederates know that Dutch designers are probably the most talented at squeezing every little bit out of torpedo craft designs, so it doesn't hurt to ask :)

[Desertfox]

If you don't mind losing some speed, you can stuff a wireless in quite a small boat.


Seekan II,  New Zion Destroyer laid down 1912

Displacement:
   240 t light; 252 t standard; 266 t normal; 277 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   220.00 ft / 220.00 ft x 19.00 ft x 5.50 ft (normal load)
   67.06 m / 67.06 m x 5.79 m  x 1.68 m

Armament:
      3 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      6 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns (2x3 guns), 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 63 lbs / 29 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 6,442 shp / 4,806 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 1,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 26 tons

Complement:
   32 - 42

Cost:
   £0.033 million / $0.132 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 8 tons, 3.0 %
   Machinery: 128 tons, 48.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 95 tons, 35.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 26 tons, 9.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 9 tons, 3.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     81 lbs / 37 Kg = 6.0 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 10.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.405
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.58 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Mid (40 %):      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Stern:      7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:   8.65 ft / 2.64 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 182.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 65.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,581 Square feet or 240 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 45 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 90 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.79
      - Overall: 0.57
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Korpen]

If you don't mind losing some speed, you can stuff a wireless in quite a small boat.


Seekan II,  New Zion Destroyer laid down 1912

Useless as it does not have enogh fuel to leave port.

I'm afraid the misc weight considerations make it impossible.

Nebelung, French Export Destroyer -Dutch engine- laid down 1916

Displacement:
   500 t light; 514 t standard; 601 t normal; 671 t full load

   Range 3.200nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 157 tons

When posting in someone's else ship thread, at least use the same cruising speed (or make a not of the range at that speed) for ease of comparison. Goes for desertfox as well.

- 2x3.5" 20 pounder guns (A and Y positions)
- 1 triple 21 inch (2 tons per torpedo) torpedo mount where the twin mount is in the illustration
- 1 or 2 twin CSA 1" MG mounts, with the single mount superfiring Y position, or with two, superfiring both A and Y
- Enough misc weight for fire control or long-range wireless.
- Seaboat quality of .75 on the same speed

A tall order, I know,  but we'd be seriously interested.

Maybe was bit unclear, this is not a ship for the open market, it already got a customer.
However the design might be for licence if that was what you were asking?

Are you talking about six or three torpedos? I compromised with using two twin mounts (2ton per TT)..
And I placed the MGs on the bridge wings.

Some loss of speed was unavoidable however.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1916

Displacement:
   500 t light; 516 t standard; 587 t normal; 644 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   259,19 ft / 259,19 ft x 21,60 ft x 9,66 ft (normal load)
   79,00 m / 79,00 m x 6,59 m  x 2,95 m

Armament:
      3 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm guns in single mounts, 20,00lbs / 9,07kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 61 lbs / 28 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140
   4 - 21,0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 18 000 shp / 13 428 Kw = 31,34 kts
   Range 3 810nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 128 tons

Complement:
   59 - 77

Cost:
   £0,109 million / $0,437 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 8 tons, 1,3 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0,4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0,4 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 305 tons, 51,9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 152 tons, 25,9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 88 tons, 14,9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 33 tons, 5,6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     110 lbs / 50 Kg = 5,3 x 3,5 " / 88 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 0,6 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 11,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,18
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,75

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,380
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,10 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,86 ft / 5,75 m
      - Forecastle (18 %):   15,75 ft / 4,80 m (7,22 ft / 2,20 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      7,22 ft / 2,20 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7,22 ft / 2,20 m
      - Stern:      8,53 ft / 2,60 m
      - Average freeboard:   9,08 ft / 2,77 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 183,7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 40,5 %
   Waterplane Area: 3 414 Square feet or 317 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 41 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 106 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,41
      - Overall: 0,55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Guinness]

Maybe was bit unclear, this is not a ship for the open market, it already got a customer.
However the design might be for licence if that was what you were asking?

Are you talking about six or three torpedos? I compromised with using two twin mounts (2ton per TT)..
And I placed the MGs on the bridge wings.

Some loss of speed was unavoidable however.

Oh no, we'd be interested in purchasing foreign built, or possibly license if we go down that road.

I was wanting 3 torpedoes in a single mount in the after position in the original design. I was also looking for only two main guns, one each fore and aft. Bridge wing MGs would be fine too. Anything over 31.5 knots would probably be good enough for the CSN.

[eltf177]

the french ship may have a little more range (3200 at 14 knots vs. 3700 at 12 knots), and is shipping 6 torpedoes, so that may or may not make a difference.

Nebelung, French Export Destroyer -Dutch engine- laid down 1916

Displacement:
   500 t light; 514 t standard; 601 t normal; 671 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229,66 ft / 229,66 ft x 21,16 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   70,00 m / 70,00 m x 6,45 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      2 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mount
     on side amidships
   Weight of broadside 22 lbs / 10 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 0,0" / 0 mm above water torpedoes

Does the French DD _have_ torpedoes?

[The Rock Doctor]

Yes - photon torpedoes.

[maddox]

Sorry elft177, should have been 20" torpedo's.