The Middle Kingdoms new trio

[Phoenix]

The proposal for a destroyer leader, or light cruiser, with a unique gun lay out.

Commodore Liu was pushing for a ship a lot larger to replace his safe haven , the old Russian armored cruiser renamed  QH Gun. But there isn't any money to be had.

Mao, MK CL laid down 1915 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   3.801 t light; 3.938 t standard; 4.305 t normal; 4.598 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393,70 ft / 393,70 ft x 52,49 ft x 14,44 ft (normal load)
   120,00 m / 120,00 m x 16,00 m  x 4,40 m

Armament:
      4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (2x2 guns), 83,72lbs / 37,97kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (1x2 guns), 83,72lbs / 37,97kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline amidships
      4 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm guns in single mounts, 12,87lbs / 5,84kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1915 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 556 lbs / 252 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 33.924 shp / 25.308 Kw = 27,50 kts
   Range 2.200nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 660 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   265 - 345

Cost:
   £0,624 million / $2,495 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 69 tons, 1,6%
   Armour: 256 tons, 5,9%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armour Deck: 256 tons, 5,9%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 1.696 tons, 39,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1.680 tons, 39,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 503 tons, 11,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 2,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3.017 lbs / 1.368 Kg = 36,0 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,25
   Metacentric height 2,8 ft / 0,9 m
   Roll period: 13,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,25
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,505
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,97 ft / 7,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Mid (50%):      17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,32 ft / 5,28 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 142,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145,5%
   Waterplane Area: 13.833 Square feet or 1.285 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 79 lbs/sq ft or 386 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 2,08
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

The cat class.

Misc weight divided as following.

18 tons of torpedos. 4 in the tubes , 8 spares
25 tons  marconi unit
20 tons enlarged command facilities. These ships are DD leaders.
37 tons not allocated yet.

The mainstay of the new MK marine, Rear Admiral Gao's love. The Chi, or speed class. Very numerous, the replacements for the much older  TB's of all classes.

Chi- XX, Middle Kingdom Small destroyer laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   495 t light; 507 t standard; 534 t normal; 556 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229,66 ft / 229,66 ft x 28,38 ft x 7,55 ft (normal load)
   70,00 m / 70,00 m x 8,65 m  x 2,30 m

Armament:
      1 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm guns in single mounts, 12,87lbs / 5,84kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft
      4 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 15 lbs / 7 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   4 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16.162 shp / 12.057 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 1.200nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 49 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   55 - 72

Cost:
   £0,067 million / $0,267 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 0,3%
   Machinery: 302 tons, 56,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 185 tons, 34,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 39 tons, 7,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 6 tons, 1,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     180 lbs / 81 Kg = 13,9 x 3,0 " / 75 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,30
   Metacentric height 1,2 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,02
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,77

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,380
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,09 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 72 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      11,15 ft / 3,40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Stern:      10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,93 ft / 3,63 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 186,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91,0%
   Waterplane Area: 3.974 Square feet or 369 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 33%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 124 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 2,84
      - Overall: 0,59
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

The "speed class"
The 6 tons misc weight is the 4 torpedos in the tubes

The River Monitors. The Flower class.
Hua Duo, Royalist Middle kingdom River monitor laid down 1913 (Engine 1906)

Displacement:
   1.000 t light; 1.046 t standard; 1.084 t normal; 1.114 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   196,85 ft / 196,85 ft x 36,09 ft x 6,56 ft (normal load)
   60,00 m / 60,00 m x 11,00 m  x 2,00 m

Armament:
      2 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (1x2 guns), 83,72lbs / 37,97kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline amidships
      4 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm guns in single mounts, 12,87lbs / 5,84kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in any sea
      6 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (4 mounts), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 222 lbs / 101 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 180
   2 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2,00" / 51 mm   127,95 ft / 39,00 m   7,21 ft / 2,20 m
   Ends:   2,00" / 51 mm     68,88 ft / 20,99 m   7,21 ft / 2,20 m
   Upper:   2,00" / 51 mm   127,95 ft / 39,00 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      2,00" / 51 mm
   2nd:   1,00" / 25 mm   1,00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 865 ihp / 645 Kw = 12,00 kts
   Range 1.500nm at 8,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 68 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   93 - 122

Cost:
   £0,082 million / $0,330 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 28 tons, 2,6%
   Armour: 464 tons, 42,8%
      - Belts: 213 tons, 19,6%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 19 tons, 1,7%
      - Armour Deck: 232 tons, 21,4%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 124 tons, 11,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 365 tons, 33,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 84 tons, 7,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 1,8%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2.266 lbs / 1.028 Kg = 27,1 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 1,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,45
   Metacentric height 2,1 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 10,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,15
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,38

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,814
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,45 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14,03 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Stern:      8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   8,33 ft / 2,54 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105,5%
   Waterplane Area: 6.281 Square feet or 584 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 47 lbs/sq ft or 228 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,44
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Flower class

[Tanthalas]

By going with a more traditional layout (AQY in this case) on the CLs you can actualy get more out of them for very little aditional tonage, somthing like this might be more apropriat.

Hong Class, MK Light Cruiser laid down 1915 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   4,000 t light; 4,140 t standard; 4,638 t normal; 5,036 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   494.00 ft / 494.00 ft x 43.00 ft x 18.00 ft (normal load)
   150.57 m / 150.57 m x 13.11 m  x 5.49 m

Armament:
      6 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (3x2 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts 
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1915 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts 
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 556 lbs / 252 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines, 
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 36,256 shp / 27,047 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 896 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   280 - 365

Cost:
   £0.658 million / $2.631 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 69 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 246 tons, 5.3 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 246 tons, 5.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 1,813 tons, 39.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,667 tons, 36.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 638 tons, 13.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 204 tons, 4.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,703 lbs / 1,226 Kg = 32.3 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
   Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 12.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck 
   Block coefficient: 0.425
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.49 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.23 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   13.50 ft / 4.11 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m before break)
      - Stern:      13.50 ft / 4.11 m
      - Average freeboard:   13.95 ft / 4.25 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 142.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 111.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 13,286 Square feet or 1,234 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 73 lbs/sq ft or 356 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.23
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

204 tons Misc. Weight
100 tons FC
 50 Flag Facilities
 25 tons Marconi
 18 tons torps
  9 tons Crew Comfort
  2 tons Capitans Quarters

[The Rock Doctor]

What's the Chi class' range at flank speed?  It seems very short-legged.

[Korpen]

What's the Chi class' range at flank speed?  It seems very short-legged.

I think their range at top speed is about 55nm, or about 2h. Then one can consider that it usually take around 20 minutes to reach top speed from cruising speed...

They are not short-legged, as short-legged can still move around, they are invalids with no legs.

[maddox]

Korpen, I re-SS'd the Chi's range at top speed, and it's 55nm.

But, on coal, there isn't much you can change about it. If more range is needed, a larger ship should be designed or oil used. .

The MK doesn't have oil. And a larger ship ain't an option either.

By cutting back the freeboard to the absolute minimum and using the increased load on the hull to make it fatter and holding more coal  you get this strange ship.

, Middle Kingdom Small destroyer laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   500 t light; 512 t standard; 636 t normal; 735 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229,66 ft / 229,66 ft x 29,53 ft x 7,87 ft (normal load)
   70,00 m / 70,00 m x 9,00 m  x 2,40 m
   2 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18.814 shp / 14.036 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 230nm at 30,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 223 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   63 - 82

Cost:
   £0,075 million / $0,299 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 365 tons, 57,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 132 tons, 20,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 136 tons, 21,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 3 tons, 0,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     150 lbs / 68 Kg = 11,7 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 2,01
   Metacentric height 2,4 ft / 0,7 m
   Roll period: 8,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 24 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,16

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,417
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 74 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   6,56 ft / 2,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      6,23 ft / 1,90 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   6,23 ft / 1,90 m
      - Stern:      6,23 ft / 1,90 m
      - Average freeboard:   6,87 ft / 2,10 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64,1%
   Waterplane Area: 4.219 Square feet or 392 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 34%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 109 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 0,73
      - Overall: 0,52
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has quick, lively roll, not a steady gun platform
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

So, if there is another option, I think Phoenix is very much interested.

[Guinness]

Well, I think the trade-off here is clear. Either you get 32 knots (according to SS2 at least), or you get useful range, but not both.

[Korpen]

Korpen, I re-SS'd the Chi's range at top speed, and it's 55nm.

But, on coal, there isn't much you can change about it. If more range is needed, a larger ship should be designed or oil used. .

The MK doesn't have oil. And a larger ship ain't an option either.

By cutting back the freeboard to the absolute minimum and using the increased load on the hull to make it fatter and holding more coal  you get this strange ship.

One can compromise, twice the original range:

Ping-Pong, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1909

Displacement:
   485 t light; 498 t standard; 551 t normal; 594 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229,66 ft / 229,66 ft x 26,25 ft x 8,20 ft (normal load)
   70,00 m / 70,00 m x 8,00 m  x 2,50 m

Armament:
      1 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm guns in single mounts, 12,87lbs / 5,84kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft
   Weight of broadside 13 lbs / 6 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 21,0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16 361 shp / 12 205 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 2 400nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 96 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   56 - 73

Cost:
   £0,062 million / $0,248 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 0,3 %
   Machinery: 311 tons, 56,5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 169 tons, 30,6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 65 tons, 11,9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 0,7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     159 lbs / 72 Kg = 12,4 x 3,0 " / 75 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,36
   Metacentric height 1,2 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,02
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,80

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,390
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,75 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 72 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16,67 ft / 5,08 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m (9,84 ft / 3,00 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Stern:      10,60 ft / 3,23 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,23 ft / 3,42 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185,3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 67,2 %
   Waterplane Area: 3 691 Square feet or 343 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 33 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 116 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 2,52
      - Overall: 0,59
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Well, I think the trade-off here is clear. Either you get 32 knots (according to SS2 at least), or you get useful range, but not both.

That is always the largest compromise in a DD I think, if one wants long legs, high speed is not possible.

[maddox]

Phoenix asked me to look again into the Chi class ships. (a month ago)

The criteria are based on Rear Admiral Gao's experience over the years.

Seakeeping to go with the time the crew stays on the ship. Captain Gao had his fair share of storms on the 250 tonners of old. Cruise speed should be fast enough to get somewere at a reasonable time and with a useable range. (range no less than 1500nm, cruise speed 12kts or greater)
125 hours at patrol speed is 5 days. And having a crew that is shoveling coal and puke all the time won't do wonders for their fighting spirit. (Set seakeeping at 1.0 or better)
Needing a mirror smooth sea to aim the guns or torpedo with succes was a big NoNo.  (steadiness .7 or better).
Top speed as high as possible on a 500 tons hull, without compromising the other criteria.

And some historical facts.
Making cokes is known in the MK since the 1100 AD, one of the by products is coal tar, and some oils. Making distilled alcohol is known for much longer, the first recorded industrial alcohol making is from 800 AD. These 2 technologies combined can make a usable light crude oil alike compound, albeit expensive.  So Phoenix allowed oil fired ships.
Of course, producing over a 100 000 tons of that synoil is a very big task, and more expensive than importing oil from known sources.

Chi Delta, Royalist Middle Kingdom Destroyer laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   500 t light; 513 t standard; 593 t normal; 657 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229,66 ft / 228,02 ft x 24,28 ft x 7,87 ft (normal load)
   70,00 m / 69,50 m x 7,40 m  x 2,40 m

Armament:
      1 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm guns in single mounts, 12,87lbs / 5,84kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      1 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward, 1 raised gun
      2 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all aft
   Weight of broadside 14 lbs / 6 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13.380 shp / 9.981 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 1.500nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 143 tons

Complement:
   59 - 78

Cost:
   £0,069 million / $0,277 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 0,3%
   Machinery: 318 tons, 53,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 174 tons, 29,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 93 tons, 15,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 6 tons, 1,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     184 lbs / 83 Kg = 14,3 x 3,0 " / 75 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,15
   Metacentric height 0,8 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 11,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,04
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,476
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,39 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,10 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 71 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 71
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1,64 ft / 0,50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      13,12 ft / 4,00 m (10,24 ft / 3,12 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   10,24 ft / 3,12 m
      - Stern:      10,24 ft / 3,12 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,94 ft / 3,64 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 176,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 43,5%
   Waterplane Area: 3.610 Square feet or 335 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 48%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 110 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 3,10
      - Overall: 0,60
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Korpen]

And some historical facts.
Making cokes is known in the MK since the 1100 AD, one of the by products is coal tar, and some oils. Making distilled alcohol is known for much longer, the first recorded industrial alcohol making is from 800 AD. These 2 technologies combined can make a usable light crude oil alike compound, albeit expensive.  So Phoenix allowed oil fired ships.

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13.380 shp / 9.981 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 1.500nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 143 tons

Now is a good time to point out that the MK do not have the tech for oil burners. :)

[maddox]

Because Korpen asked it so nicely in the chat.
This is the latest design I got from Phoenix concerning the DD's that are buing build by the dozens.
The lack of seakeeping and steadiness is countered by the incredible stability.

Chi, Middle Kingdom Small destroyer laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   501 t light; 514 t standard; 636 t normal; 734 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229,66 ft / 229,66 ft x 29,53 ft x 7,87 ft (normal load)
   70,00 m / 70,00 m x 9,00 m  x 2,40 m

Armament:
      1 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm guns in single mounts, 12,87lbs / 5,84kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft
   Weight of broadside 13 lbs / 6 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   2 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18.814 shp / 14.036 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 1.600nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 220 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   63 - 82

Cost:
   £0,076 million / $0,304 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 0,3%
   Machinery: 362 tons, 57,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 134 tons, 21,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 136 tons, 21,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 3 tons, 0,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     149 lbs / 68 Kg = 11,6 x 3,0 " / 75 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 2,00
   Metacentric height 2,4 ft / 0,7 m
   Roll period: 8,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 24 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,16

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,417
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 74 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   6,56 ft / 2,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      6,23 ft / 1,90 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   6,23 ft / 1,90 m
      - Stern:      6,23 ft / 1,90 m
      - Average freeboard:   6,87 ft / 2,10 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 186,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64,1%
   Waterplane Area: 4.219 Square feet or 392 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 34%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 110 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,51
      - Longitudinal: 0,73
      - Overall: 0,52
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has quick, lively roll, not a steady gun platform
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

The "speed class"

[The Rock Doctor]

I know we accept lower seakeeping is considered fine for destroyers, but 0.16 is more like a surfaced submarine than a surface ship.

[maddox]

It's perfectly inside the rules Rock Doctor, and it seems the rules are Everything. 
So I think, as moderators, we will have to accept this ship.

Also, I see the scene from Das Boat with the surfaced submarine in the storm right in front of me.  But then combined with coal fired boilers. Start shoveling puke and bodyparts.

And I would have prefered more, smaller torpedo's. The ship has the deckspace, and the MK has the older 17", or  20" fishes.

[The Rock Doctor]

I'm sorry you're chafing as a result of rules.

Nonetheless - in my view, the design is fundamentally flawed.  If you and Phoenix are comfortable with that, go for it.

[Carthaginian]

Unfortunately, I think the issue is just the extend to which seakeeping 'matters' in a vessel's design, and whether or not size or other relative factors might make a ship less effected by it's 'poor seakeeping.'

We can:
1.) assume that all 'fast ships' have problems with their seakeeping at high speeds and assume that the seakeeping penalty has no effect on 'normal cruising.' However, if the ship is making high speed, it will suffer increasingly in it's ability to handle the weather condition resulting in multiple handicaps (including, perversely, a slower top speed than a slow ship that is a better seaboat)- this would seem, for the most part, to be the more realistic case.
2.) assume that all 'small ships' will have poor seakeeping and that nothing will overcome this. Thus, all small ships can have as poor a seakeeping rating as their owner desires- and all will suffer substantial penalties based on size rather than seakeeping, at least until the ships approach the size of capital ships.
3.) assume that Springsharp seakeeping estimates are a standard- albeit flawed- that we will adhere to, and thus have a 'golden rule' about seakeeping that is simple, easy to gauge, and does not require a morass of additional rules to handle.

I personally believe that simple works.

[maddox]

I'm not comfy with it.
Just have a look at any French design.

But it's a series of ships in build since 1913, and those should go to the Encyclopedia rather soon.

I'll give it a work over, but I expect to get ships that are a lot slower.

Or else, are there gentlemen who are willing to please Phoenix with a superiour DD?

The Ping Pong design is a very good alternative.  maybe that Phoenix has bought that design from a Dutch shipbuilding firm... :)