French destroyer

[maddox]

For Nverse France, no crew comfort will look like punishment detail for the crews.  That will result in less than happy and inspired crews.
Probably leading to less than optimal fighting capabilities.

On the other hand, it's mainly an issue of leadership.

[Jefgte]

Bottles of wine are crew comfort  :P


:D  :D  :D

[maddox]

They'll have to drink it at room temperature, is that now -5°C or 35°C, or even 65°C

[Borys]

For Nverse France, no crew comfort will look like punishment detail for the crews.  That will result in less than happy and inspired crews.
Probably leading to less than optimal fighting capabilities.

On the other hand, it's mainly an issue of leadership.

Flogging, or even better, hanging the one who complains the loudest usually is a good motivator.
Maybe one impalement a month per flotilla would be cost effective?

Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

I'd give a dollar to see Borys in charge of human resources at a major bank.

Is the omission of depth charges accidental, or does it reflect French doctrine?

[Guinness]

I'd give a dollar to see Borys in charge of human resources at a major bank.

What? He sounds just like my HR rep.

Also: to me, if it's only got one gun, it's not really a "destroyer", it's a torpedo boat. But that's semantics.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Presumably, the idea is to churn out a number of these vessels to help patrol the Bahrat coast, the main opponent being surface vessels, with a secondary role of escort and tertiary of fleet screen if needed.

In that case I would expect having sufficient firepower to defeat the opposing light combatents would be important.

How much tonnage do you gain if you drop speed by a single knot?
What would that allow you to do?

[maddox]

It was an attemp to build a useable destroyer for as little money as possible.

But 1 Tigre B is way more capable than 2 Ocillas. And the new 1500 tonners are a different kettle of fish.

The depth charges. Only the most modern cruisers, the refitted Demarce III's and the brandnew larger Demarce IV's have those. As well the ubiqtous Chardon sloops.

Who have shown a good record.

Petit Chardon, French Corvette laid down 1916

Displacement:
   742 t light; 791 t standard; 1.015 t normal; 1.195 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   228,02 ft / 227,36 ft x 36,09 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   69,50 m / 69,30 m x 11,00 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (3x2 guns), 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 215 lbs / 98 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 235
   3 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm      0,50" / 13 mm
   2nd:   0,30" / 8 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4.730 shp / 3.529 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 404 tons

Complement:
   89 - 116

Cost:
   £0,120 million / $0,479 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 27 tons, 2,6%
   Armour: 9 tons, 0,9%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 9 tons, 0,9%
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 176 tons, 17,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 440 tons, 43,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 273 tons, 26,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 90 tons, 8,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1.622 lbs / 736 Kg = 45,9 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,15
   Metacentric height 1,4 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 12,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,440
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,30 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15,08 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,66 ft / 0,20 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17,39 ft / 5,30 m
      - Forecastle (10%):   17,39 ft / 5,30 m (11,15 ft / 3,40 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50%):      11,15 ft / 3,40 m
      - Quarterdeck (8%):   11,15 ft / 3,40 m
      - Stern:      11,15 ft / 3,40 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,78 ft / 3,59 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92,7%
   Waterplane Area: 5.192 Square feet or 482 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 152%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 55 lbs/sq ft or 268 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,88
      - Longitudinal: 3,07
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc weight

6 tons torpedo's (1 tripple mount)
10 ton crew comfort
25 tons DD FC
25 tons long range wireless
24 tons =  72 depth charges and 3 rails.

[Jefgte]

20kts is a too short speed to work with the fleet. 24kts is the mini.

IMO,
- Remove 1T2x105
- reduce the misc weight to 80 or 70t...enough.
- increase the speed


;)

[maddox]

Ain't a fleet escort, but a convoyer,  sub chaser, harbor patrol and so on.

But, why should I bother? A few more Tigre B's with a sleightly changed armament would do.

Tigre AS, French Destroyer laid down 1916

Displacement:
   996 t light; 1.042 t standard; 1.219 t normal; 1.360 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   364,17 ft / 360,89 ft x 29,53 ft x 10,01 ft (normal load)
   111,00 m / 110,00 m x 9,00 m  x 3,05 m

Armament:
      3 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
      2 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 254 lbs / 115 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20.098 shp / 14.993 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Trial speed 31 kts
   Range 4.400nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 318 tons

Complement:
   103 - 134

Cost:
   £0,227 million / $0,908 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 32 tons, 2,6%
   Armour: 8 tons, 0,6%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 8 tons, 0,6%
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 551 tons, 45,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 336 tons, 27,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 222 tons, 18,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 70 tons, 5,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     383 lbs / 174 Kg = 4,6 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,42
   Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,33
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,31

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0,400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,22 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15,75 ft / 4,80 m
      - Forecastle (15%):   12,47 ft / 3,80 m
      - Mid (26%):      12,47 ft / 3,80 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   8,20 ft / 2,50 m (12,47 ft / 3,80 m before break)
      - Stern:      8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,02 ft / 3,67 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 172,1%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92,6%
   Waterplane Area: 6.560 Square feet or 609 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 67%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 133 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,09
      - Overall: 0,54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

the misc weight is divided:
12 tons torpedo's  - no reloads
25 tons UW-ERADe
33 tons depth charges- 99 charges and 3 rails.

Remark- prototype ERADe, secundary microphone mounted under the hull- only forward arc

[The Bushranger]

I'd give a dollar to see Borys in charge of human resources at a major bank.

The floggings will continue until morale improves...

[maddox]

Fraiseuse, French Destroyer leader laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   1.492 t light; 1.559 t standard; 1.765 t normal; 1.930 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   446,19 ft / 442,91 ft x 36,91 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   136,00 m / 135,00 m x 11,25 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      4 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 377 lbs / 171 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   9 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm   0,75" / 19 mm            -
   2nd:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 29.905 shp / 22.309 Kw = 32,00 kts
   Trial speed 32.5 kts
   Range 3.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 371 tons

Complement:
   136 - 177

Cost:
   £0,415 million / $1,662 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 43 tons, 2,4%
   Armour: 15 tons, 0,9%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 15 tons, 0,9%
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 855 tons, 48,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 504 tons, 28,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 273 tons, 15,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 4,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     530 lbs / 240 Kg = 6,3 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,52
   Metacentric height 2,3 ft / 0,7 m
   Roll period: 10,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,22
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,384
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21,05 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (25%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      12,80 ft / 3,90 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,14 ft / 3,70 m
      - Stern:      12,14 ft / 3,70 m
      - Average freeboard:   13,36 ft / 4,07 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 179,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110,0%
   Waterplane Area: 9.983 Square feet or 927 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 66%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 151 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 0,72
      - Overall: 0,52
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Class of 10 ships, named for metal working machines

18 ton torpedo's 9 torpedo's in 3 tripple tubes
25 ton FC
25 ton LR marconi
6 ton DC in twin stern racks 9 charges in each rack
1 ton crew comfort

[TexanCowboy]

I think for a destroyer, the main armerment is too heavy. Look at the action reports between the German and British destroyers in World War II, as the record showed that the German super-destroyers with a heavy main armerment didn't do so great. Maybe change the main armerment to 6 4.7'', or so. Also, random question, is there going to be a tech created that allows for super-destroyers of 2,500 tons later on?

[The Rock Doctor]

Eventually, probably.

Agreed on the armament, but Maddox is not afraid to sim things he thinks are interesting, rather than things he thinks are ideal.

[Guinness]

France also has the problem that it doesn't have a gun between 105mm and 140mm. Her allies keep telling her that she needs a gun in the 120mm range, but no such luck yet.

I probably shouldn't harp though, or Maddox will produce a DDL design using France's 165mm gun...