French destroyer

[maddox]

I'm running into a logistical problem.  The all famous French 140mm gun is a QF gun, using a heavy grenade of 42 kg. In total the loaders are lugging around 65+ kg of shell.

In the past, most loaders are selected from the black gang, the guys with brawn And brain get a promotion to loader, and one of the perks of the loaders is larger rations. (one of the reasons I add a few tons of crew comfort in most, if not all ships).

But with the Tigre B's and the Demarce IIIb Volcano's, I'm adding 132 of those 140mm guns to the fleet. Each gun has 2 loaders, so I need 264 guys, about 5" 6 , 200 lbs and not much fat, with a mechanical aptitude and stamina too boot, on top all those manning the modern BB secundaries.

[maddox]

Export vessel

Tigre C- Romanian destroyer laid down 1916

Displacement:
   991 t light; 1.039 t standard; 1.174 t normal; 1.282 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   364,17 ft / 360,89 ft x 29,53 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   111,00 m / 110,00 m x 9,00 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
     4 - 5,00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62,50lbs / 28,35kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     2 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 251 lbs / 114 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 180
   6 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm   0,75" / 19 mm            -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 25.477 shp / 19.006 Kw = 32,00 kts
   Range 3.400nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 243 tons

Complement:
   99 - 130

Cost:
   £0,235 million / $0,940 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 31 tons, 2,7%
   Armour: 13 tons, 1,1%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 13 tons, 1,1%
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 590 tons, 50,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 334 tons, 28,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 184 tons, 15,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 22 tons, 1,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     310 lbs / 140 Kg = 5,0 x 5,0 " / 127 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,40
   Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,32
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0,392
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,22 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15,09 ft / 4,60 m
      - Forecastle (15%):   11,81 ft / 3,60 m
      - Mid (26%):      11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   9,19 ft / 2,80 m (11,48 ft / 3,50 m before break)
      - Stern:      9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,40 ft / 3,48 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 88,5%
   Waterplane Area: 6.531 Square feet or 607 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 54%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 139 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 0,97
      - Overall: 0,54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

12 ton Torpedo's
10 ton Depth charches in 3 stern racks of 10

[TexanCowboy]

Looks good to me. My equivelent designs can only go 30 knots.

[Walter]

Well that is possible when you design something that would snap in two due to the high l:b ratio. :)

[maddox]

True, it's a tad over the "guideline of 12-1 L/b ratio"

And that's more the result of a crashed computer, as I did keep the  original design in a back up, but not the follow ups that rectified this "deficiency"

The moderators can have fun with these ships (and I have 20 of 'm).

[TexanCowboy]

Well, since Glourious France is building them... I forsee a circular destroyer for them in the future.

[maddox]

That will require quite an engine to get some speed.  Maybe by strapping on a few 100 of those Romanian rokets on the stern?

[TexanCowboy]

Deal.... For the Magenta, I'll give you all the rockets you need.. ;)

[Kaiser Kirk]

But with the Tigre B's and the Demarce IIIb Volcano's, I'm adding 132 of those 140mm guns to the fleet. Each gun has 2 loaders, so I need 264 guys, about 5" 6 , 200 lbs and not much fat, with a mechanical aptitude and stamina too boot, on top all those manning the modern BB secundaries.

Such folks are around.  Not to long ago I would qualify, and in 1917, so did a pair of my Great Grandfathers. With France's population base, putting out a small enlistment bonus for that body type should solve the problem.

[maddox]

Problem is, Kaiser Kirk, that not many people that are in the black gang of the older French vessels, are suitable for the gunnery positions.  And it takes time to "change" the recruting procedure for the 140mm guns. Bureaucracy is tough...

I agree, it's easy to find those men on on the French population base.
But not in the Black Gangs, especialy not when the Black gangs are getting rarer themselfs due the shift to oil firing.

[maddox]

This was once a Leopard.

Gun Nut, French Destroyer laid down 1920

Displacement:
   999 t light; 1.061 t standard; 1.150 t normal; 1.221 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   354,33 ft / 354,33 ft x 26,25 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   108,00 m / 108,00 m x 8,00 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      5 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (4 mounts), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 0,50" / 12,7 mm guns in single mounts, 0,06lbs / 0,03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 463 lbs / 210 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 33.193 shp / 24.762 Kw = 34,00 kts
   Range 1.875nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 161 tons

Complement:
   98 - 128

Cost:
   £0,381 million / $1,525 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 52 tons, 4,6%
   Machinery: 588 tons, 51,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 318 tons, 27,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 151 tons, 13,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 41 tons, 3,6%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     197 lbs / 89 Kg = 2,4 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
   Metacentric height 0,9 ft / 0,3 m
   Roll period: 11,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,73
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,73

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,440
   Length to Beam Ratio: 13,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18,82 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Forecastle (15%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (27%):      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Stern:      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   10,53 ft / 3,21 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 203,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 47,1%
   Waterplane Area: 5.884 Square feet or 547 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 41%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 140 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 0,86
      - Overall: 0,52
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

16 tons torpedo's, 8 fish in 21" tubes

25 tons FC

[maddox]

Demarce V, French GSDD laid down 1919 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   11.611 t light; 12.073 t standard; 14.208 t normal; 15.916 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   711,94 ft / 708,66 ft x 59,06 ft x 26,25 ft (normal load)
   217,00 m / 216,00 m x 18,00 m  x 8,00 m

Armament:
      8 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns (4x2 guns), 264,55lbs / 120,00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1914 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2.123 lbs / 963 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   12 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,00" / 76 mm   538,58 ft / 164,16 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 117% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   2nd:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 1,75" / 44 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 119.753 shp / 89.336 Kw = 34,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.844 tons

Complement:
   649 - 845

Cost:
   £2,666 million / $10,662 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 227 tons, 1,6%
   Armour: 1.842 tons, 13,0%
      - Belts: 908 tons, 6,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 68 tons, 0,5%
      - Armour Deck: 866 tons, 6,1%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 4.462 tons, 31,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.840 tons, 34,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.597 tons, 18,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 240 tons, 1,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10.834 lbs / 4.914 Kg = 47,9 x 7,7 " / 195 mm shells or 1,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,21
   Metacentric height 3,2 ft / 1,0 m
   Roll period: 13,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,49
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,453
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29,53 ft / 9,00 m
      - Forecastle (14%):   22,97 ft / 7,00 m (16,40 ft / 5,00 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50%):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (10%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,69 ft / 5,39 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 116,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 103,4%
   Waterplane Area: 26.755 Square feet or 2.486 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 517 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,99
      - Longitudinal: 1,05
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

100 tons fire control
25 tons ERADe
25 tons long range marconi
48 tons torpedo's . 12 in the tubes, 1 reload per tube
42 tons crew comfort.

[Logi]

I don't whether to call it big or French-small. What would you get if you cut the Belt to 50mm and the Deck to 1" (as in shrinking the size of the ship). Also is 34 kts nesscary?

[Guinness]

I dunno, I don't think it fits in the destroyer rules.  :P

[maddox]

It's not build to the DD rules. it's perfectly inside the cruiser rules, but Glorious France felt a need to have a suitable DD for escorting those new 70Kton BB's.