French destroyer

[Korpen]

Oh, poor me, just because I used standard sizes, I fell outside the concretized rules.

Well, It is noy like it is  hard one to follow noe that we got it. And we DO have rules for a reason.

[maddox]

Korpen, P3D

Length to Beam Ratio

Ratios should be reflective of the size and speed of the vessel.

Length to Beam Ratios of 12:1 (smaller, faster ships) or 10:1 (larger or slower ships) or less are reasonable and do not risk moderator-inflicted incidents.  Ships approaching circular shape risk moderator-inflicted performance issues.

Rules work both ways.

But Player Maddox will use , at least for 1 group of 6, the design with 12-1 L/b ratio. Then Player Maddox doesn't have to write yet another newsroom message that hurts Glorious France.

[Guinness]

It's too bad you fell back to the 12:1 L/B version. I was just daydreaming about what moderator inflicted incidents we could inflict :)

[P3D]

Oh, poor me, just because I used standard sizes, I fell outside the concretized rules.
Just with some playing around I got this one.  Just the same combat power, but the captain has lost his 50 bottle winecellar.

Poor captain must keep the wine in the cabin. That means only red wine, maybe rosé that does not have to be cooled to 17*C.

To avoid any dissatisfaction of the officer corps, only new captains - unfamiliar with previous luxuries - should get command of these destroyers.

[maddox]

With the  Destroyer Speed Calculator ,as found in the ship design guidelines, Tigre reaches 34.5 kts.

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2726.msg29462#msg29462

Tigre, French Destroyer laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   999 t light; 1.036 t standard; 1.182 t normal; 1.298 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   364,17 ft / 360,89 ft x 30,09 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   111,00 m / 110,00 m x 9,17 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      4 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 39,68lbs / 18,00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 159 lbs / 72 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   9 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 25.565 shp / 19.071 Kw = 32,00 kts
   Adjusted speed 34.5 kts
   Range 3.100nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 262 tons

Complement:
   100 - 131

Cost:
   £0,201 million / $0,805 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 18 tons, 1,5%
   Armour: 6 tons, 0,5%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 6 tons, 0,5%
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 633 tons, 53,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 323 tons, 27,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 182 tons, 15,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 1,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     308 lbs / 140 Kg = 8,7 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,43
   Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,5 m
   Roll period: 10,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,18
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,387
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15,09 ft / 4,60 m
      - Forecastle (15%):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Mid (26%):      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      - Stern:      9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,49 ft / 3,50 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 186,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 69,9%
   Waterplane Area: 6.639 Square feet or 617 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 54%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 134 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 0,93
      - Overall: 0,53
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

the misc weight is divided:
9 tons torpedo's in the tubes
6 tons crew comfort messures

[Borys]

The KKK likes it!

[maddox]

A similar design, with heavier guns, fire control  and heavier torpedo's.
20 layed down january 1916

Tigre beta, French Destroyer laid down 1916

Displacement:
   1.000 t light; 1.045 t standard; 1.172 t normal; 1.273 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   364,17 ft / 360,89 ft x 29,53 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   111,00 m / 110,00 m x 9,00 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      3 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,98kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
      2 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,55lbs / 0,70kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 254 lbs / 115 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,50" / 13 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 25.426 shp / 18.968 Kw = 32,00 kts
   Trial speed 33,00 kts
   Range 3.200nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 229 tons

Complement:
   99 - 130

Cost:
   £0,235 million / $0,940 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 32 tons, 2,7%
   Armour: 8 tons, 0,7%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 8 tons, 0,7%
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 585 tons, 49,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 332 tons, 28,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 172 tons, 14,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 43 tons, 3,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     303 lbs / 137 Kg = 3,6 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,37
   Metacentric height 1,4 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,32
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0,391
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,22 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15,09 ft / 4,60 m
      - Forecastle (15%):   11,81 ft / 3,60 m
      - Mid (26%):      11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   9,19 ft / 2,80 m (11,48 ft / 3,50 m before break)
      - Stern:      9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,40 ft / 3,48 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 88,5%
   Waterplane Area: 6.528 Square feet or 607 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 53%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 138 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 0,97
      - Overall: 0,54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

the misc weight is divided:
19 tons torpedo's in the tubes
25 tons Fire Control

Modified to remove the 70mm AA gun.

[Borys]

The KKK does not like it!

[Guinness]

The 140mm armed one is probably too heavily armed. I guess the French don't currently have a 120mm gun in inventory?

[maddox]

Nope, no 4.5 - 5" gun in the French inventory.

The next step down from the all present 140mm 5.5" gun is the rarely used 105mm. And that's not strong enough to my liking.

[maddox]

Glorious France has layed down the Tigre B.

But a follow up will be faster in exchange for gun caliber. Historical ,France had a useable 130mm L40 gun .

If I want to have that one in time, I should start development now.

[maddox]

With a view on lean times, this DD design was forwarded.

Pure function. No crew comforts are included, the only concession are the very thin gunshields, just enough to keep the weather off.

Oncilla, French Torpedo boat destroyer laid down 1916

Displacement:
   500 t light; 515 t standard; 589 t normal; 648 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   265,75 ft / 262,47 ft x 24,61 ft x 7,55 ft (normal load)
   81,00 m / 80,00 m x 7,50 m  x 2,30 m

Armament:
      1 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 33,07lbs / 15,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft
      2 - 0,98" / 25,0 mm guns (1x2 guns), 0,48lbs / 0,22kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mount
     on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 34 lbs / 15 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,13" / 3 mm   0,13" / 3 mm            -
   2nd:   0,13" / 3 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15.524 shp / 11.581 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Trial speed 32,5 kts
   Range 2.000nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 133 tons

Complement:
   59 - 77

Cost:
   £0,106 million / $0,422 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 5 tons, 0,8%
   Armour: 0 tons, 0,1%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0,1%
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 309 tons, 52,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 178 tons, 30,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 88 tons, 15,0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 8 tons, 1,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     177 lbs / 80 Kg = 5,0 x 4,1 " / 105 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,28
   Metacentric height 0,9 ft / 0,3 m
   Roll period: 10,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,08
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,423
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,67 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,20 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,86 ft / 5,75 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   14,76 ft / 4,50 m (9,84 ft / 3,00 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50%):      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Stern:      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,15 ft / 3,40 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 176,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73,5%
   Waterplane Area: 4.034 Square feet or 375 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 108 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,91
      - Overall: 0,57
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Misc weight
8 tons torpedo and tubes

[Jefgte]

With 2000nm range this is a coastal DD so, crew confort is in the harbor  :D

[maddox]

Jeff, that's true.   
This one wasn't ment as a fleet destroyer, but with a good logistics train, it could be possible.

But she doesn't have any scope for improvements. And that galls me.

[Jefgte]

This is a fleet DD for coastal job
Cross Atlantic is not possible but Mediterranee, yes

No crew confort mean bad work condition & bad result in action  ???


Jef  ;)