Zestroer 1915

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I'll be building three per year of these, starting 2HY1915.

Z10, Habsburg Kaiserreich GTB/Zestroer laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   1 000 t light; 1 031 t standard; 1 111 t normal; 1 175 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   299,00 ft / 299,00 ft x 32,00 ft x 8,50 ft (normal load)
   91,14 m / 91,14 m x 9,75 m  x 2,59 m

Armament:
      3 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1915 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 96 lbs / 44 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26 474 shp / 19 750 Kw = 31,00 kts
   Range 1 700nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 144 tons

Complement:
   96 - 125

Cost:
   £0,191 million / $0,762 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 12 tons, 1,1%
   Armour: 6 tons, 0,6%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 6 tons, 0,6%
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 613 tons, 55,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 350 tons, 31,5%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 110 tons, 9,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 18 tons, 1,6%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     326 lbs / 148 Kg = 10,2 x 4,0 " / 102 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,28
   Metacentric height 1,4 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 11,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,12
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,478
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,34 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,29 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 70 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,00 ft / 6,71 m
      - Forecastle (25%):   20,00 ft / 6,10 m
      - Mid (35%):      20,00 ft / 6,10 m (12,00 ft / 3,66 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
      - Stern:      12,00 ft / 3,66 m
      - Average freeboard:   15,00 ft / 4,57 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100,5%
   Waterplane Area: 6 250 Square feet or 581 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 50%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 138 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 2,54
      - Overall: 0,59
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Guinness]

Nothing but my humble opinion here, but...

If this boat is intended for service in the Med, I don't think it needs all the freeboard. If it's intended to venture further afield, I think it needs more range.

What's the main battery layout? I'm guessing 1 mount fore, 1 mount aft, and one raised mount between tubes or stacks?

[P3D]

Yes, should need twice the range, 4' less freeboard and one more gun. Can you afford higher speed vs. firepower and FC, when your most likely adversaries (Orange and Italy, discounting the Ottomans) have a significant edge in the number of not much slower screens? Even if you do not intend to upgun the ship to 5". My rule of thumb for destroyers is L:B:D=33:3:1, so you can also decrease beam to 27-28', increase draught to 9' and lengthen the ship.

[Borys]

Designing this boat was pain in the ass :)
Increasing the ammo allowance brings my light displacement DOWN, for instance, for I'm not much inclined to tamper with the specs.

So yes, it's for the Med. For Parana I'd build something coal fired.

BINGO!
You got the guns' layout correctly. In fact, it is a copy of the OTL GTB1913/16:
http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte/ships/torpedoboats/gtb1913/index.html
http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte/ships/torpedoboats/gtb1916mob/index.html

My next vessel will be a ripp-off of this:
http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte/ships/torpedoboats/gtb1918mob/index.html

After finishing my ACs I'll churn out 3000 tonnes scout cruisers to combat enemy screens.
Borys

[Korpen]

So yes, it's for the Med. For Parana I'd build something coal fired.

Why?
There are the NUS oilfields right across the border, while the coals in Rio grande do sul was poor quality.

[P3D]

Your "copy" has more freeboard, 30% less range, 50% the misc weight, 1' shallower draught, and 8' wider beam than the German ship. Mot considering speed issues, less capable.

[Borys]

How about this then?
And there is oil in north Argentina?

Z1915, Habsburg Kaiserreich GTB/Zestroer laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   1 000 t light; 1 034 t standard; 1 139 t normal; 1 222 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   299,00 ft / 299,00 ft x 24,00 ft x 9,00 ft (normal load)
   91,14 m / 91,14 m x 7,32 m  x 2,74 m

Armament:
      3 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 35,00lbs / 15,88kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 105 lbs / 48 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   6 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 31 578 shp / 23 557 Kw = 32,00 kts
   Range 2 200nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 188 tons

Complement:
   97 - 127

Cost:
   £0,224 million / $0,895 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 12 tons, 1,1%
   Armour: 6 tons, 0,6%
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 6 tons, 0,6%
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0%
   Machinery: 655 tons, 57,5%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 291 tons, 25,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 139 tons, 12,2%
   Miscellaneous weights: 35 tons, 3,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     226 lbs / 103 Kg = 7,1 x 4,0 " / 102 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 0,7 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 12,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 47 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,21
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,57

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,617
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,46 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,29 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 72 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 78
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Forecastle (25%):   15,00 ft / 4,57 m
      - Mid (35%):      15,00 ft / 4,57 m (8,00 ft / 2,44 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
      - Stern:      8,00 ft / 2,44 m
      - Average freeboard:   10,75 ft / 3,28 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 197,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 45,8%
   Waterplane Area: 5 332 Square feet or 495 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 43%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 139 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,61
      - Longitudinal: 1,29
      - Overall: 0,66
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

[Guinness]

You probably erred too much in the other direction. The BC is very high for a ship in this class, and the freeboard is probably a little too low now. Also, the L/B ratio might be a little high. If stability is the concern, I think you could drop the BC and add length and beam.

What was the light displacement of the historic examples? On your links, I see a size (max) figure that looks like displacement, but I suspect that's full load, not light. In that case, those boats are probably in our 750t class.

[P3D]

Yes, too high BC and too high L:B. The displacement of the ships is about the same.

[Borys]

The linked site gives full load figures.

A reworked design, with no foundations in OTL:
Z-10, Habsburgs Zestroer laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   1 000 t light; 1 037 t standard; 1 137 t normal; 1 217 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   310,00 ft / 310,00 ft x 30,00 ft x 8,00 ft (normal load)
   94,49 m / 94,49 m x 9,14 m  x 2,44 m

Armament:
      3 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 35,00lbs / 15,88kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 105 lbs / 48 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   6 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
2x2, 2x1

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26 787 shp / 19 983 Kw = 31,00 kts
   Range 2 100nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 180 tons

Complement:
   97 - 127

Cost:
   £0,194 million / $0,775 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 12 tons, 1,1%
   Machinery: 629 tons, 55,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 334 tons, 29,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 138 tons, 12,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 2,2%
torpedos and what-nots; the guns fire over open sights

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     329 lbs / 149 Kg = 10,3 x 4,0 " / 102 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,38
   Metacentric height 1,4 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,13
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,99

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,535
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,61 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,00 ft / 6,71 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Mid (40%):      18,00 ft / 5,49 m (11,00 ft / 3,35 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
      - Stern:      11,00 ft / 3,35 m
      - Average freeboard:   14,12 ft / 4,30 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 189,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98,7%
   Waterplane Area: 6 400 Square feet or 595 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 50%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 131 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,98
      - Overall: 0,57
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather
stupid 0,01 :D 

[Korpen]

I think she is to shallow for her weight. If you increase draft to about 3m, you can get a ship with 50% more range, 1,5kts more speed and better seakeeping.

[Borys]

That's beyond my skill ...
Borys

[Korpen]

That's beyond my skill ...
Borys

Something like this:

H-Class, Netherlands Torpedoboot laid down 1912

Displacement:
   1 000 t light; 1 031 t standard; 1 171 t normal; 1 283 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   344,49 ft / 344,49 ft x 30,02 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   105,00 m / 105,00 m x 9,15 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      3 - 4,02" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32,38lbs / 14,69kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
   Weight of broadside 97 lbs / 44 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 28 650 shp / 21 373 Kw = 32,61 kts
   Range 3 000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 251 tons

Complement:
   99 - 130

Cost:
   £0,137 million / $0,549 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 12 tons, 1,0 %
   Machinery: 658 tons, 56,2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 305 tons, 26,0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 171 tons, 14,6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 2,1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     267 lbs / 121 Kg = 8,2 x 4,0 " / 102 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,36
   Metacentric height 1,4 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,11
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,94

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,403
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,48 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18,56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 80
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (38 %):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Stern:      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,64 ft / 3,55 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 191,5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95,6 %
   Waterplane Area: 6 376 Square feet or 592 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 130 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,01
      - Overall: 0,53
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[maddox]

My attempt.
Slower with 31kts, but with 4 105mm guns and  3 tripple torpedo tubes a bit heavier armed. Also seakeeping and range is hugely improved.

Zten, Habsburg  Zestroer laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   1.000 t light; 1.034 t standard; 1.175 t normal; 1.287 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   364,65 ft / 360,89 ft x 29,53 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   111,15 m / 110,00 m x 9,00 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      4 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      4 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1915 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 128 lbs / 58 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   9 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 25.483 shp / 19.010 Kw = 32,00 kts
   Range 3.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 253 tons

Complement:
   99 - 130

Cost:
   £0,199 million / $0,797 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 16 tons, 1,4%
   Machinery: 632 tons, 53,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 327 tons, 27,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 175 tons, 14,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 2,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     313 lbs / 142 Kg = 9,8 x 4,0 " / 102 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,41
   Metacentric height 1,5 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,15
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,10

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,392
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,22 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1,64 ft / 0,50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15,09 ft / 4,60 m
      - Forecastle (15%):   13,78 ft / 4,20 m
      - Mid (27%):      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Stern:      8,86 ft / 2,70 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,82 ft / 3,60 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 186,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 70,1%
   Waterplane Area: 6.532 Square feet or 607 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 54%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 133 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,02
      - Overall: 0,54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

the misc weight is divided:
-9 tons torpedo's in the tubes
-marconi instalation

[Borys]

triples come with 1500 tonnes tech, no?
EDITED: No, they do not :D
And I bow to your superior skills.
Borys