Iberian AC 1916

[miketr]

I know...  All things have a cost.  Here is the faster version.  So 1.75 knots of top speed costs 2,200 light tons.  I do like speed...  Something to think about.

Michael

AC-1916d, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   16,800 t light; 17,493 t standard; 19,647 t normal; 21,371 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   558.90 ft / 553.12 ft x 78.74 ft x 28.71 ft (normal load)
   170.35 m / 168.59 m x 24.00 m  x 8.75 m

Armament:
      8 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (4x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 5,153 lbs / 2,337 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.50" / 165 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   192.19 ft / 58.58 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.50" / 165 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      6.50" / 165 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 6.50" / 165 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 110,000 shp / 82,060 Kw = 30.02 kts
   Range 21,940nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,878 tons

Complement:
   829 - 1,078

Cost:
   £2.786 million / $11.146 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 644 tons, 3.3 %
   Armour: 4,341 tons, 22.1 %
      - Belts: 1,420 tons, 7.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,159 tons, 5.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,660 tons, 8.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 102 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 4,098 tons, 20.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,207 tons, 36.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,847 tons, 14.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 510 tons, 2.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     22,378 lbs / 10,151 Kg = 46.9 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 16.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.02 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.52 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32.81 ft / 10.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   30.35 ft / 9.25 m
      - Mid (50 %):      28.71 ft / 8.75 m (24.61 ft / 7.50 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   23.79 ft / 7.25 m
      - Stern:      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   27.10 ft / 8.26 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 186.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 30,395 Square feet or 2,824 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 144 lbs/sq ft or 702 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.89
      - Longitudinal: 2.62
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Range @ 10 knots 21,940 nm
Range @ 12 knots 14,500 nm
Range @ 15 knots 8,700 nm
Range @ 20 knots 4,200 nm
Range @ 30.02 knots 1,250 nm

[miketr]

If I ignore my self limit of using only a type 2 slipway...

AC-1916e, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   18,000 t light; 18,719 t standard; 20,977 t normal; 22,783 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   661.52 ft / 656.17 ft x 72.18 ft x 28.71 ft (normal load)
   201.63 m / 200.00 m x 22.00 m  x 8.75 m

Armament:
      8 - 9.84" / 250 mm guns (4x2 guns), 476.75lbs / 216.25kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 5,153 lbs / 2,337 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.50" / 165 mm   426.51 ft / 130.00 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   229.63 ft / 69.99 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   426.51 ft / 130.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.50" / 165 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      6.50" / 165 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 6.50" / 165 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 120,000 shp / 89,520 Kw = 31.27 kts
   Range 21,120nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,064 tons

Complement:
   870 - 1,132

Cost:
   £2.940 million / $11.762 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 644 tons, 3.1 %
   Armour: 4,637 tons, 22.1 %
      - Belts: 1,642 tons, 7.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,099 tons, 5.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,789 tons, 8.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 106 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 4,471 tons, 21.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,678 tons, 36.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,977 tons, 14.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 570 tons, 2.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     23,164 lbs / 10,507 Kg = 48.6 x 9.8 " / 250 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.540
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.09 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30.35 ft / 9.25 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      27.89 ft / 8.50 m (21.33 ft / 6.50 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.51 ft / 6.25 m
      - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   24.92 ft / 7.60 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 32,745 Square feet or 3,042 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 138 lbs/sq ft or 676 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.75
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Range @ 10 knots 21,120 nm
Range @ 12 knots 14,000 nm
Range @ 15 knots 8,600 nm
Range @ 20 knots 4,400 nm
Range @ 31.26 knots 1,250 nm

[Borys]

Maybe you can arm that vessel with 8x11", 8x12" even, if you ditch the 15cm guns?

Borys

[miketr]

Maybe you can arm that vessel with 8x11", 8x12" even, if you ditch the 15cm guns?

Borys

If I ditch all the 150's, all the misc weigh cut the deck to 50mm I am still short on stability.  The objective here was to build a cruiser killer and for that mission only 250mm weapons are needed.  The question is it worth building at all?  I have a long list of things to do in 1916 and I can't afford to lay down 2 DN's and 2 full sized BC's.  So I am left with attempting a large cruiser on a budget as I need 2 more DN' while my cruiser situation is actually no longer desperate.

Michael

[Borys]

You can build three of these for two of your latest design.
Borys

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1916

Displacement:
   13 305 t light; 13 934 t standard; 14 999 t normal; 15 851 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   640,00 ft / 640,00 ft x 70,00 ft x 21,00 ft (normal load)
   195,07 m / 195,07 m x 21,34 m  x 6,40 m

Armament:
      6 - 9,84" / 250 mm guns (3x2 guns), 476,75lbs / 216,25kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 9,84" / 250 mm guns (1x2 guns), 476,75lbs / 216,25kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      8 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns in single mounts, 0,98lbs / 0,44kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4 072 lbs / 1 847 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4,25" / 108 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   240,00 ft / 73,15 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Upper:   2,75" / 70 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 96% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,00" / 127 mm   2,00" / 51 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   2nd:   5,00" / 127 mm   2,00" / 51 mm      4,25" / 108 mm
   3rd:   1,00" / 25 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4,00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 73 856 shp / 55 096 Kw = 29,00 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 917 tons

Complement:
   676 - 880

Cost:
   £2,092 million / $8,368 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 509 tons, 3,4%
   Armour: 3 504 tons, 23,4%
      - Belts: 1 790 tons, 11,9%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 496 tons, 3,3%
      - Armour Deck: 1 166 tons, 7,8%
      - Conning Tower: 52 tons, 0,3%
   Machinery: 2 752 tons, 18,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 970 tons, 39,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 694 tons, 11,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 570 tons, 3,8%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18 064 lbs / 8 194 Kg = 37,9 x 9,8 " / 250 mm shells or 2,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 3,5 ft / 1,1 m
   Roll period: 15,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,558
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,14 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25,30 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,00 ft / 9,14 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   24,00 ft / 7,32 m
      - Mid (46%):      24,00 ft / 7,32 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,16 ft / 6,14 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 170,4%
   Waterplane Area: 31 501 Square feet or 2 927 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 127 lbs/sq ft or 621 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,18
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[miketr]

2.7 to 2 actually.  Its a tin clad...  that armor belt is dam thin and I would be worried about another mid sized cruiser just knocking turrets out one after another.  Also there is a 2 knot difference so thats 2K displacement right there.  I am NOT going to build a tin clad.  I have horrible picture of one of the 7.5" armed designs out there mission killing it... 

Michael

[Korpen]

If I ditch all the 150's, all the misc weigh cut the deck to 50mm I am still short on stability.  The objective here was to build a cruiser killer and for that mission only 250mm weapons are needed.  The question is it worth building at all?  I have a long list of things to do in 1916 and I can't afford to lay down 2 DN's and 2 full sized BC's.  So I am left with attempting a large cruiser on a budget as I need 2 more DN' while my cruiser situation is actually no longer desperate.

Given her size is would say that it is not worth it, while she is efficient against <6 000 ton cruisers, her armament is lacking efficiency against larger ships, making her main asset being her speed. And if the speed is the main usefull thing, a much smaller (and cheaper) ship will do just as well.

That said it no not think this kind of ship can be very usefull, just that they need firepower to be able to clobber the not insignificant number of ships that are protected against 25 cm gunfire.

[miketr]

I could always build something like this...  My problem is my issue with ships not able to take hits from their own guns.  Also I don't much care for the three turret designs, as if you loose a turret your long range gunnery becomes a problem for spotting.

Thanks for the thought Korpen...

AC-1916f, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   18,000 t light; 18,759 t standard; 20,977 t normal; 22,751 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   661.52 ft / 656.17 ft x 72.18 ft x 28.71 ft (normal load)
   201.63 m / 200.00 m x 22.00 m  x 8.75 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.68kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6,533 lbs / 2,963 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.50" / 165 mm   429.79 ft / 131.00 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   226.38 ft / 69.00 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   429.79 ft / 131.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.50" / 165 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      6.50" / 165 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 6.50" / 165 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 120,000 shp / 89,520 Kw = 31.27 kts
   Range 20,730nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,993 tons

Complement:
   870 - 1,132

Cost:
   £3.178 million / $12.711 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 817 tons, 3.9 %
   Armour: 4,004 tons, 19.1 %
      - Belts: 1,649 tons, 7.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,056 tons, 5.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,192 tons, 5.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 106 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 4,471 tons, 21.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,119 tons, 38.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,977 tons, 14.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 590 tons, 2.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20,718 lbs / 9,397 Kg = 23.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 16.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.97
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.540
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.09 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30.35 ft / 9.25 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      27.89 ft / 8.50 m (21.33 ft / 6.50 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.51 ft / 6.25 m
      - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   24.92 ft / 7.60 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 32,745 Square feet or 3,042 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 715 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.83
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Now for ABOUT the same displacement I can build two of these....

PC-1916 8.8Ka, Iberia Protected Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   8,722 t light; 9,036 t standard; 9,807 t normal; 10,424 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   590.55 ft / 590.55 ft x 59.06 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
   180.00 m / 180.00 m x 18.00 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      10 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (5x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 1,163 lbs / 528 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 175
   12 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   479.00 ft / 146.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 125 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -         2.95" / 75 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 90,000 shp / 67,140 Kw = 32.60 kts
   Range 11,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,388 tons

Complement:
   492 - 640

Cost:
   £1.468 million / $5.870 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 145 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 1,501 tons, 15.3 %
      - Belts: 561 tons, 5.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 55 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 846 tons, 8.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 39 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 3,353 tons, 34.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,548 tons, 36.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,085 tons, 11.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 175 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     8,328 lbs / 3,778 Kg = 80.9 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.34
   Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 12.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.27
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.15 ft / 6.75 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   11.48 ft / 3.50 m (18.04 ft / 5.50 m before break)
      - Stern:      11.48 ft / 3.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.69 ft / 5.70 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 124.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 134.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 23,236 Square feet or 2,159 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 96 lbs/sq ft or 470 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.22
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Cruiser FC 100 tons, Long range radio 25 tons, Twelve 20" torpedos (2x3) 12 tons and 38 tons construction reserve

[Borys]

I'd build the smaller ships. But cut down speed to 31 knots.
Borys

[Korpen]

I could always build something like this...  My problem is my issue with ships not able to take hits from their own guns.

Never quite been able to see the logic of that one, the important must surely be the enemy guns?

Also I don't much care for the three turret designs, as if you loose a turret your long range gunnery becomes a problem for spotting.

True, but i think that risk is worth it. And in engaging light cruisers the 30cm guns have the advantage of being powerful enough to use SAP shells instead of APC, giving the shells about twice the payload.
That said, it should be possible to get 8 x 305mm guns on that ships without scarifying speed, or vertical protection. You got an awful lot of misc weight, I would slash at least 200to, that would do much to allow a forth turret.
Also on your design the armour does not cover the magazines.

I think i would go for the larger design, it is a more eggs in the same basket, yes, but the greater numbers of missions she can undertake would be worth it IMO.
Think it would be a good idea to give both types some capacity for laying mines, their speed and range makes them usefull for offensive mining.


Just something similar i have been working on to show what i mean:

SL-15, Netherlands Sloop laid down 1916

Displacement:
   18 000 t light; 19 023 t standard; 20 683 t normal; 22 011 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   707,68 ft / 707,68 ft x 72,83 ft x 26,57 ft (normal load)
   215,70 m / 215,70 m x 22,20 m  x 8,10 m

Armament:
      8 - 12,01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 903,90lbs / 410,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 61,73lbs / 28,00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 8 219 lbs / 3 728 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   6 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6,30" / 160 mm   479,00 ft / 146,00 m   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8,46" / 215 mm   4,33" / 110 mm      6,69" / 170 mm
   2nd:   0,98" / 25 mm         -         1,97" / 50 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 9,06" / 230 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 113 101 shp / 84 373 Kw = 31,20 kts
   Range 5 546nm at 16,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 989 tons

Complement:
   862 - 1 121

Cost:
   £3,331 million / $13,325 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 971 tons, 4,7 %
   Armour: 4 378 tons, 21,2 %
      - Belts: 2 055 tons, 9,9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 1 149 tons, 5,6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1 027 tons, 5,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 147 tons, 0,7 %
   Machinery: 4 214 tons, 20,4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8 088 tons, 39,1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 683 tons, 13,0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 349 tons, 1,7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19 075 lbs / 8 652 Kg = 22,0 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 1,9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
   Metacentric height 3,8 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 15,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,86
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,528
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,72 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26,60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24,93 ft / 7,60 m (19,69 ft / 6,00 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Stern:      21,98 ft / 6,70 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,07 ft / 6,12 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104,0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135,3 %
   Waterplane Area: 35 256 Square feet or 3 275 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 720 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,16
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

For comparison her range is 15 000nm at 10 kts

[Jefgte]

Mike, with your harbors all over the map, are you sure you need 20 000nm range?
For a raider your AC is too big & ...expensive

IMO
reduce the range & increase the protection.


;)

[miketr]

Borys:  Why slower?

Korpen:  I noticed the armor issue; it's because I didn't update the armor design from the 250mm gun version.  I have version on my HDD that has the extra 6 meters of length.  If I have only 200 misc tons then I don't have displacement for FC thats a 250 ton hit right there.  I agree it has too much misc weight; odds are a final design would have more ammo or secondaries.

As to your design it has 10mm less deck and an even higher beam to length ratio than my own design.

As to gunnery...  The take own main guns is in theory a measure of the type of hits she can take in turn in my own mind.  Going with the 12" weapons would require a main belt at least 2" thicker.

Jefgte:  Actually as part of the 1916 program is going to see me build some more bases in Brazil because I don't have enough ports in the right places.  Also I time and time again order ships to do sprint runs from or two the Philippines and thats a long way to go.  Global missions requires global range; IMHO.

I will attempt to refine the design a little tonight with peoples thoughts.

[miketr]

All this is a refinement of the base design to push the speed to the max, got a 1/3 of a knot more.

Looking over the design to get the seakeeping, etc I want and 8 12" would require another 2K to 3K.

Michael

AC-1916g, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   18,001 t light; 18,754 t standard; 20,901 t normal; 22,618 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   694.33 ft / 688.98 ft x 72.51 ft x 28.22 ft (normal load)
   211.63 m / 210.00 m x 22.10 m  x 8.60 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.67kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6,481 lbs / 2,940 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.50" / 165 mm   463.42 ft / 141.25 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   225.56 ft / 68.75 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   463.42 ft / 141.25 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.50" / 165 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      6.50" / 165 mm
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 6.50" / 165 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 120,001 shp / 89,521 Kw = 31.55 kts
   Range 19,760nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,864 tons

Complement:
   868 - 1,129

Cost:
   £3.169 million / $12.675 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 810 tons, 3.9 %
   Armour: 4,114 tons, 19.7 %
      - Belts: 1,750 tons, 8.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,025 tons, 4.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,233 tons, 5.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 106 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 4,471 tons, 21.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,290 tons, 39.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,900 tons, 13.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 315 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21,510 lbs / 9,757 Kg = 24.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 15.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.90
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.519
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.25 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30.35 ft / 9.25 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   28.71 ft / 8.75 m
      - Mid (50 %):      27.07 ft / 8.25 m (20.51 ft / 6.25 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   24.22 ft / 7.38 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,870 Square feet or 3,147 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 718 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.58
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

I suggested cutting that c.1,5 knot due to its cost.
Borys

[miketr]

I decided to reduce my range a bit and add some armor.  Just so light AP rounds don't just punch through the ends and risk slowing the ship down...

AC-1916h, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   18,500 t light; 19,253 t standard; 20,901 t normal; 22,219 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   694.33 ft / 688.98 ft x 72.51 ft x 28.22 ft (normal load)
   211.63 m / 210.00 m x 22.10 m  x 8.60 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.67kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6,481 lbs / 2,940 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.50" / 165 mm   463.42 ft / 141.25 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   225.56 ft / 68.75 m   10.20 ft / 3.11 m
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   463.42 ft / 141.25 m   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.50" / 165 mm   4.72" / 120 mm      6.50" / 165 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 6.50" / 165 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 120,001 shp / 89,521 Kw = 31.55 kts
   Range 14,930nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,965 tons

Complement:
   868 - 1,129

Cost:
   £3.197 million / $12.790 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 810 tons, 3.9 %
   Armour: 4,562 tons, 21.8 %
      - Belts: 2,174 tons, 10.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,048 tons, 5.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,233 tons, 5.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 106 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 4,471 tons, 21.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,382 tons, 40.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,401 tons, 11.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 275 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21,534 lbs / 9,767 Kg = 24.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.91
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.17

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.519
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.25 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30.35 ft / 9.25 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   28.71 ft / 8.75 m
      - Mid (50 %):      27.07 ft / 8.25 m (20.51 ft / 6.25 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   24.22 ft / 7.38 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,870 Square feet or 3,147 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 149 lbs/sq ft or 726 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.57
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

14930
6300@15 knots
3300@ 20 knots
950 @ 31.5 knots