New Ships of the Mark: H1/1906

[Borys]

Ahoj!
You're not the first to be cofused by this. If Goalkeeper or Phalanx are called "Cavalcade of Whirling Death" by their producers, they still are bland, unexciting "machine guns" to SS :)

Borys

[Desertfox]

It doesnt really matter, SS2 will assigned the same weight to the gun independant of wether it is a breech loader or a quick firing.

[Ithekro]

So the question is, now that we have all this data,  which battleship should the Mark build next?

There are the above options:
8 x 14" with 4.5" QF as secondaries
8 x 14" with 6" secondaries
8 x 14" with 7.5" turreted secondaries and 4.5" QFs
8 x 14" with 9" turreted secondaries and 4.5" QFs

And there are a few other options (older actually):
6 x 14" with 9" secondaries including a single superimposed 9" turret aft.
6 x 14" with 7.5" turreted or casemated secondaries.

And there are the unexplored options.

Mixed 12" triple with twin 14" turrets (an old Nevada looking ship)
Four triple 12" turrets to make it looks like a version of the Snowmane.
An enlarged Arcadia with added superimposed turrets in addition to the wing turrets.
Triple 14" gun turrets.  (which I was going to wait until later to do)

[Carthaginian]

I'd go with either the 4.5" or 6" secondaries.

My own 7.5" secondaries were (apparently) too heavy for effective use. The CSA tried that on one BB class and then reverted back to 6" guns. I'd say stick to the first two plans.
The one mounting four triple 12" turrets would be a nice ship as well, it would fit in good with the 'character' of the classes laid down now. A possibility if the two 14" ships are decided agianst.

The third and forth would be OK, but the ship would either get really big and expensive, or make sacrifices in armor and speed that the Mark probably doesn't wish to make.

The older options... well, they're old. ;)

The mixed version would simply serve to confuse gunners... bad idea.
The final two options are good as well, but if you have wing turrets, make sure they can cross-deck. :) And the triple 14" ship would probably be the best bet, but it might take a while.

[Walter]

How about making it longer and narrower and dump 7x2 12 inch guns and 20x1 6 inch guns on there...

;D

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I have problem in deciding due to navweapons having strange date. The British 7,5 inchers (the only of that calibre with armour piercing data) have intriguing differences in their AP capability.
With same muzzle velocity, same weight of CPC shell, MkIII penetrates 4,5 inch at 3000 yards, while MkIV pentrates 4 inches at 10000 yards, and 10 inches at 3000.
Went back to read the fine print.
The first figure is for 30 degree impact, the 4 inch at 10K yards is unknown, and 10 inches at 3K is for vertical.
Interestingly, 30 degree angle of fall would be at 15K yards. At 3K yards it would be 7 degrees.

My suggestion is to go with
6 x 14" with 7.5" turreted or casemated secondaries.

The 7,5 pentration rate at expected battle ranges should be 6-7 inches of armour (enough for non-Main Belt belts, and often upper belt as well), and the ROF is almost twice that of 9 inch guns.

Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

Six or eight x14" with 9" secondaries would not be surprising follow-ons.  I'm not sure if Rohan feels the mixed battery still has merit or not.

With a couple of 14" ships now in service, I don't imagine a move back to 12" would be that popular amongst the senior levels of government.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
6x14" +9", even though the amount of metal in the air would be lower, would guaranty penetration of upper and side belts. However, usefulness against torpedo boats/destroyers would be "not very high". The 7,5 are LIKELY to pentrate those upper and side belts, and are still uself (I think) against torpedo boats/destroyers.
Thus, either plan to have light cruisers on hand to protect against torpedo attacks, or add 4-6" secondaries. yes, secondaries, as the 9 inchers are "Second Main Calibre".
:)
Borys

[Ithekro]

That comes later Walter, one must have patience before one can make turret farm ship...with 14 inch guns.  ;D

14" and 9" is not surprizing since that is what the Freawines are armed with.  Since there has been no combat since the Anahuac war for these type of ships, they have little data to go with at present since the battleships were only in one real action the whole war.  In that action the 9" guns did better than the 12" guns for the majority of the fighting.  The single 7.5 inch armed vessel did a lot of damage to enemy cruisers, but was destroyed too quickly to assess its use on capital ships.

The Arcadias are all big gun mainly because of the need to not use the French 340mm cannons and not enough space for the new 14 inch guns, thus the triple 12" turrets were made.

War games have not been conclusive at this time.  Arcadia tends to get more hits than the Theodens, Elfwines, and Eomers, but the extra number of 9" batteries on the older Rohirrim vessels tend to make up the difference in scoring hits.  But then the difference is 8 x 12" broadside from Arcadia verses 6 x 12" + 4 x 9" on a broadside, thus the older ships have 2 more barrels to shoot verses Arcadia.  Freawine is of a similar design to Elfwine just with a superimposed turret and 14" guns.  So it too has 10 barrels on a broadside (6 x 14" + 4 x 9")

Helm Hammerhand is proposed to be 8 x 14" + 4 x 9" on a broadside.   Hmmm...I wonder if....

[Ithekro]

...Oh dear...

Helm Hammerhand

Rohan Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   26,461 t light; 28,025 t standard; 29,500 t normal; 30,562 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   535.00 ft / 530.00 ft x 108.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
   163.07 m / 161.54 m x 32.92 m  x 7.92 m

Armament:
      8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1891 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1897 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1902 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 17,019 lbs / 7,720 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   335.00 ft / 102.11 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   175.00 ft / 53.34 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
     20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   7.00" / 178 mm   335.00 ft / 102.11 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   14.0" / 356 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 34,500 shp / 25,737 Kw = 20.40 kts
   Range 5,250nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,655 tons)

Complement:
   1,125 - 1,463

Cost:
   £2.933 million / $11.731 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,127 tons, 7.2 %
   Armour: 10,502 tons, 35.6 %
      - Belts: 3,692 tons, 12.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 4,008 tons, 13.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,513 tons, 8.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 289 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,568 tons, 5.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,213 tons, 41.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,039 tons, 10.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39,466 lbs / 17,902 Kg = 28.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
   Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.27

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.694
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.91 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.02 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.89 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.48 ft / 6.24 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 153.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 45,279 Square feet or 4,207 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 96 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 210 lbs/sq ft or 1,026 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.95
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Carthaginian]

Everything about that ship is frightening... including the pricetag!

Looks like Satsuma just met her match!

[Desertfox]

Trying to kill us with heart attacks?

Dont worry Walter, Gin Palace will be built (as will the Fisher Follies!)   

[Ithekro]

Trying to kill us with heart attacks?

Well I almost gave myself one when I found out I could get it to fit.
Just wait until I try to draw it.  ;D

Yes for the price of Snowmane and Valandil you can build this one ship....in about three years, three and a half years, and about 26.5 BP.

It will still fit through the canal.  It is this wide so it will still be stable.

(I'd like to note that the Helm Hammerhand design is the most modified ship I have in my Rohan file.  I have 16 versions of it now..from the 8 x 12" cannon wing turret armed 17,750 ton normal vessel with no heavy secondaries (to have been laid down in 1899 with 1906 turbines) to the 1907 battleship with 1909 turbines and 12 x 14" cannons at 29,500 tons normal you see here...its gone thorugh a lot.  Only the Chilean Heavy Armored Cruiser Capitan Oyama in Wesworld has gone though so many changes of the ships I've designed.

[Ithekro]

Okay, logic time:   The Mark is going from a ship like this:

Walda - laid down 1904

Rohan Battleship laid down 1902 (Engine 1906)

Displacement:
   16,868 t light; 17,716 t standard; 18,750 t normal; 19,502 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   500.00 ft / 500.00 ft x 87.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
   152.40 m / 152.40 m x 26.52 m  x 7.32 m

Armament:
      6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 9.00" / 229 mm guns in single mounts, 364.50lbs / 165.33kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 9.00" / 229 mm guns in single mounts, 364.50lbs / 165.33kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      12 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1902 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1902 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 11,705 lbs / 5,309 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 70

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   330.00 ft / 100.58 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   170.00 ft / 51.82 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Upper:   5.00" / 127 mm   330.00 ft / 100.58 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   9.00" / 229 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   3rd:   7.00" / 178 mm         -               -
   4th:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 23,000 shp / 17,158 Kw = 19.91 kts
   Range 5,250nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,862 tons)

Complement:
   800 - 1,041

Cost:
   £2.041 million / $8.162 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,463 tons, 7.8 %
   Armour: 6,362 tons, 33.9 %
      - Belts: 2,864 tons, 15.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 2,127 tons, 11.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,188 tons, 6.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 183 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,580 tons, 8.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,413 tons, 39.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,882 tons, 10.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19,652 lbs / 8,914 Kg = 14.3 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
   Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.26

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.629
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.75 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.88 ft / 4.84 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 32,108 Square feet or 2,983 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 88 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 173 lbs/sq ft or 847 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.57
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

...to a ship that is 10,000 tons light heavier and mounts six twin 14" gun turrets.  However the plan was to make smaller steps.  Logically the step should probably be to 4 turrets.  The question is if the design should be "all big gun" or mixed main caliber weapons (9" or 7.5").  Even the first proposal shops jump the light tonnage by about 5,000 tons, and increased the ships dimensions by 10 feet in length and 9 feet in width (for stability) with the mixed main caliber ships getting larger than this even.

So logically, if Rohan follows its own pattern does it stay with mixed heavy weapons, or follow the path of Arcadia?  The Arcadia path is heading the way of the Battlecruiser Snowmane.  However Rohan has always been for firepower over speed.  The more barrels they can point at the enemy the more likely they will leave you be.  With the introduction of the turbines the fleet speed has altered to 20 knots.  Thus Rohan is at a turnning point in design.  And it is unclear which way they should go.

[The Rock Doctor]

There's still a need for a "battleship", as Snowmane is clearly not up to the task of going toe to toe with other battleships; the protection isn't there.

I'd suggest going to a 4x2 14", all-big-gun battleship as your next step; it will be broadly similar in capability to Walda, allowing the Mark to compare the two types in service.  A 6x2 ship doesn't allow a real comparison to be made, and the size of that ship is likely to be deemed excessive by your own government.