New Ships of the Mark: H1/1906

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Scary. Old guns though.

Borys

[Ithekro]

Old, but better than my own old 6" guns, some of which are in service still, but are planned to be retired or possibly replaced with these, or the next model...which is hoped to be a quick fire.

[Korpen]

Old, but better than my own old 6" guns, some of which are in service still, but are planned to be retired or possibly replaced with these, or the next model...which is hoped to be a quick fire.

Why?
The round for a 15cm QF gun is around 2m long and weight around 90kg, and quite tricky to use.

http://www.i19.mil.se/photo.php?id=43975&nid=13953
Picture of a 15,5cm case (And i did my concription service on the gun the fired that round...)

[Desertfox]

NS has some pretty good new 6" guns in service. If Rohan desires these guns could be provided.

[maddox]

The French 140mm QF guns are among the best in the world.  Maybe those can suite the Helm Hammerhand?

[Carthaginian]

Why?
The round for a 15cm QF gun is around 2m long and weight around 90kg, and quite tricky to use.

http://www.i19.mil.se/photo.php?id=43975&nid=13953
Picture of a 15,5cm case (And i did my concription service on the gun the fired that round...)

Remember, the shell hoists for these guns are going to do away with the most awkward part of firing an artillery piece on land... carrying the round from the box to the gun.

I've never gotten to handle something THAT big *OMFG but it's big*, but I've played with the 120mm rounds from an M1-A2 before. As long as the round is kept proximate to the gun, it's easier to have it in one piece. I'd hate to have to lug that one-piece 120mm round a long distance, but it's a lot more convenient to handle than a separate round and powder bags from what I understand.

[Korpen]

Remember, the shell hoists for these guns are going to do away with the most awkward part of firing an artillery piece on land... carrying the round from the box to the gun.

I've never gotten to handle something THAT big *OMFG but it's big*, but I've played with the 120mm rounds from an M1-A2 before. As long as the round is kept proximate to the gun, it's easier to have it in one piece. I'd hate to have to lug that one-piece 120mm round a long distance, but it's a lot more convenient to handle than a separate round and powder bags from what I understand.

Thankfully we never* had to manhandle them, thy were loaded in a 14-round magazine in the back of the gun, and we could fire it all in about 45 sec, not bad for a field cannon from the sixties. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandkanon_1
Ah, nostalgia..
*well it happen when something went wrong, like when the loading vehicle managed to drop one...
And shee hiost does not help that much as it is still long and tricky to manouver.

[Carthaginian]

Thankfully we never* had to manhandle them, thy were loaded in a 14-round magazine in the back of the gun, and we could fire it all in about 45 sec, not bad for a field cannon from the sixties. :)

*whistles*

WOW

My Grandfather would almost faint! He was a 105mm gunner from '41-'46, and numbers like that would blow his mind. That's getting into the outrageous range for a field piece.

Swedish Army, huh... I wonder if you guys would dust off those old Bofors plans and try and sell them to the US army. Looks like it's got it all over the Paladin I saw our boys using in Iraq.

[P3D]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandkanon_1

There's no problem with the Crusader at all, it was already in a working prototype stage when someone who knew better cancelled it.

PzH2000 only approaches that capability. The only one system on par with it is the twin-barrel Russian monster also in prototype stage.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The above information only prove that large calibre QF are not valid. The French oddball 140mm QF stays as a not very succesful experiment. The loaders are specially selected for strenght (a coveted promotion for stokers).
The maximum calibre for for QF should be 5 inch, for guns which either do not have high velocity (thus lighter round) or not very high ROF.  But issues with fixed rounds start from 4 inches/105mm upwards.
Borys

[Ithekro]

Well the options are continue to use the 4.5 inch quick fires.  Use an older though sturdy Confederate 6 inch breech loader, or use a Rohirrim 7.5 inch breech loader as a secondary weapon on a 14" gun armed battleship.

Trouble being that over 6 inch it is likely that a weapon will not be able to track a destroyer sized vessel.  The 4.5 inch, as a quick fire has a better chance of getting the hit while still posing at least a small threat to cruisers and the upper works of battleships.  A 7.5 inch gun will be pretty much useless against destroyers and torpedo boats but will ring the bells of any cruiser and could put a dent in some battleships.  The 6 inch guns (100 pounders) can engage a destroyer and do some damage to a cruiser while still being able to annoy a capital ship's lighter armored sections.

If Rohan goes with the current pattern from the Theoden's up, there will be 9 inch secondaries, or reduced to twin 7.5 inch turret secondaries if not just casemate mounts  (using the turrets designed for the belted cruisers as a baseline), or Rohan follows the Arcadia pattern and  has no heavy secondaries, just the quick fires and all big guns.

[Ithekro]

Now this, this is scary.  Dropping the 6 inch and using the 7.5 and 4.5 inch guns.  The 4.5s firing in high casemate mounts over the twin turrets...using belted cruiser turrets for the 7.5s.

Helm Hammerhand

Rohan Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   23,945 t light; 25,006 t standard; 26,650 t normal; 27,859 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   515.00 ft / 510.00 ft x 108.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   156.97 m / 155.45 m x 32.92 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (4x2 guns), 210.94lbs / 95.68kg shells, 1891 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1897 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
      4 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1902 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 13,219 lbs / 5,996 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 70

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   335.00 ft / 102.11 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   175.00 ft / 53.34 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Upper:   7.00" / 178 mm   335.00 ft / 102.11 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   7.00" / 178 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 34,500 shp / 25,737 Kw = 20.65 kts
   Range 5,250nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,960 tons)

Complement:
   1,042 - 1,355

Cost:
   £2.458 million / $9.833 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,652 tons, 6.2 %
   Armour: 10,095 tons, 37.9 %
      - Belts: 3,880 tons, 14.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 3,567 tons, 13.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,377 tons, 8.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 270 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,659 tons, 6.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,489 tons, 39.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,705 tons, 10.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39,399 lbs / 17,871 Kg = 28.7 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
   Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.677
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.72 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.58 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.89 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.48 ft / 6.24 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 42,830 Square feet or 3,979 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 191 lbs/sq ft or 935 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 1.97
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or really scary big. (to match the Japanese vessels with 10 and 12 inch secondaries)  This uses the combat cruiser 9 inch gun turrets.


Helm Hammerhand

Rohan Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   25,214 t light; 26,777 t standard; 28,500 t normal; 29,765 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   535.00 ft / 530.00 ft x 108.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   163.07 m / 161.54 m x 32.92 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 9.00" / 229 mm guns (4x2 guns), 364.50lbs / 165.33kg shells, 1891 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1897 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
      4 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1902 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 14,447 lbs / 6,553 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   335.00 ft / 102.11 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   175.00 ft / 53.34 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
     20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   7.00" / 178 mm   335.00 ft / 102.11 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
     Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   9.00" / 229 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 34,500 shp / 25,737 Kw = 20.48 kts
   Range 5,250nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 3,102 tons)

Complement:
   1,096 - 1,425

Cost:
   £2.632 million / $10.527 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,806 tons, 6.3 %
   Armour: 10,471 tons, 36.7 %
      - Belts: 3,908 tons, 13.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 3,759 tons, 13.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,522 tons, 8.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 282 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,659 tons, 5.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,228 tons, 39.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,286 tons, 11.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     41,691 lbs / 18,911 Kg = 30.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.697
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.91 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.02 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.89 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.48 ft / 6.24 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 45,434 Square feet or 4,221 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 194 lbs/sq ft or 948 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.82
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Carthaginian]

The planned Confederate 6"/45 cal QF's are going to have separate ammo, much like the real British 6" QF's. This mostly eliminates the weight and size problems suggested, the cartridge will actually weigh only about 60-65 pounds- only a bit more than half the shell weight. They'll also only be about 4' long... not too big and bulky to be handled well.


If I can handle the receiver of a M2 .50cal in the enclosed space of a Humvee without great difficulty (similar sizes & weights) then the sailors can manage with these, I think. ;)

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Ahh, the malicious British 6 inch QF :)
Spring Sharp and the Royal Navy do not always use the same terminology. In Spring Sharp QF=fixed case, Breech Loader = separate (regardless of HOW separate). The RN was NOT so consistent in its terminology.
Thus, regardless if separate-bag, or separate-cartridge, such guns are both BL in SS.

Reading the SS manual reveals such juicy titbits.

Borys

[Carthaginian]

Ahoj!
Ahh, the malicious British 6 inch QF :)
Spring Sharp and the Royal Navy do not always use the same terminology. In Spring Sharp QF=fixed case, Breech Loader = separate (regardless of HOW separate). The RN was NOT so consistent in its terminology.
Thus, regardless if separate-bag, or separate-cartridge, such guns are both BL in SS.

Reading the SS manual reveals such juicy titbits.

Borys

INSTRUCTIONS?
WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' INSTRUCTIONS!!!
;)

Seriously, though... sorry for the case of mistaken identity. I'll sim any such ships as 'BL' and will re-name the gun appropriately. I had never really read the manual that in-depth; I'm more of a 'learn by doing' sort... which explains the bumps and bruises. :)

I'll 'reinvent' the gun I was planning if that works better, making it an improved BL design in keeping with the gun development chart.