Logi's Design Studies

[Logi]

If development of a Quad 11" mount started in 1922, then the ship would be able to be laid down at the start of 1925.

Ship is intended to fight at close quarters, ~12 kyd. Straddling quickly, and show the enemy is shells. Any ship with armor that defeats the 11" will be fired upon by HE shells.

HH&LM Modern,  Armoured Cruiser laid down 1925

Displacement:
   18,000 t light; 19,127 t standard; 20,157 t normal; 20,981 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 169.77 m x 27.43 m  x 8.23 m

Armament:
      12 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (3x4 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1925 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1925 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1925 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 8,552 lbs / 3,879 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.60" / 244 mm   361.00 ft / 110.03 m   17.03 ft / 5.19 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.62" / 41 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 84,223 shp / 62,830 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,853 tons

Complement:
   845 - 1,099

Cost:
   £6.253 million / $25.014 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,069 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 5,258 tons, 26.1 %
      - Belts: 2,578 tons, 12.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,612 tons, 8.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,021 tons, 5.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 48 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 2,735 tons, 13.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,323 tons, 41.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,157 tons, 10.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 615 tons, 3.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     23,820 lbs / 10,804 Kg = 35.8 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.521
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.19 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.50 ft / 6.86 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Stern:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.15 ft / 6.45 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 34,059 Square feet or 3,164 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 833 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.05
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Misc Weight (613 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
250t Elevation-Transverse Larger Motors for Individually-Sleeved Guns, Gyro-stabilization for Main Battery Guns
25t Construction Reserve

Deck covers only armored box (361 ft), thus real armor is 2.5" (64mm) over the 361 ft of the protected box.

Main battery consists of three four-gun turrets, capable of individual elevation in order to straddle quickly. In addition, Main battery are gyro-stabilized to make aiming easier.

Main belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 16 ft.

[mentat]

  - am wondering on trade-off - extra speed (which seems lacking for Cruiser) vs. only 8 x 11" ??

[Logi]

I suppose it's better. Faster for a shave of 0.2" off the main belt.

HH&LM Modern,  Armoured Cruiser laid down 1925

Displacement:
   18,000 t light; 18,901 t standard; 19,924 t normal; 20,742 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 86.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 169.77 m x 26.21 m  x 8.23 m

Armament:
     8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x4 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1925 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1925 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
     8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1925 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5,890 lbs / 2,671 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.40" / 239 mm   361.00 ft / 110.03 m   17.03 ft / 5.19 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 1.62" / 41 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 127,813 shp / 95,349 Kw = 31.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,841 tons

Complement:
   838 - 1,090

Cost:
   £5.987 million / $23.948 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 736 tons, 3.7 %
   Armour: 4,747 tons, 23.8 %
      - Belts: 2,516 tons, 12.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,192 tons, 6.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 992 tons, 5.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 48 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 4,150 tons, 20.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,837 tons, 39.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,924 tons, 9.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 530 tons, 2.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     23,404 lbs / 10,616 Kg = 35.2 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 16.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.539
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.48 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.00 ft / 8.84 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Mid (50 %):      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Stern:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Average freeboard:   26.58 ft / 8.10 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 197.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,093 Square feet or 3,074 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 751 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.59
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Misc Weight (530 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
165t Elevation-Transverse Larger Motors for Individually-Sleeved Guns, Gyro-stabilization for Main Battery Guns
25t Construction Reserve

Deck covers only armored box (361 ft), thus real armor is 2.5" (64mm) over the 361 ft of the protected box.

Main battery consists of three four-gun turrets, capable of individual elevation in order to straddle quickly. In addition, Main battery are gyro-stabilized to make aiming easier.

Main belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 16 ft.

[TexanCowboy]

If development of a Quad 11" mount started in 1922, then the ship would be able to be laid down at the start of 1925.

Ship is intended to fight at close quarters, ~12 kyd. Straddling quickly, and show the enemy is shells. Any ship with armor that defeats the 11" will be fired upon by HE shells.

HH&LM Modern,  Armoured Cruiser laid down 1925

Displacement:
   18,000 t light; 19,127 t standard; 20,157 t normal; 20,981 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 169.77 m x 27.43 m  x 8.23 m

Armament:
      12 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (3x4 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1925 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1925 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1925 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 8,552 lbs / 3,879 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.60" / 244 mm   361.00 ft / 110.03 m   17.03 ft / 5.19 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.62" / 41 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 84,223 shp / 62,830 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,853 tons

Complement:
   845 - 1,099

Cost:
   £6.253 million / $25.014 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,069 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 5,258 tons, 26.1 %
      - Belts: 2,578 tons, 12.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,612 tons, 8.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,021 tons, 5.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 48 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 2,735 tons, 13.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,323 tons, 41.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,157 tons, 10.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 615 tons, 3.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     23,820 lbs / 10,804 Kg = 35.8 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.58
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.521
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.19 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.50 ft / 6.86 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Stern:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.15 ft / 6.45 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 34,059 Square feet or 3,164 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 833 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.05
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Misc Weight (613 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
250t Elevation-Transverse Larger Motors for Individually-Sleeved Guns, Gyro-stabilization for Main Battery Guns
25t Construction Reserve

Deck covers only armored box (361 ft), thus real armor is 2.5" (64mm) over the 361 ft of the protected box.

Main battery consists of three four-gun turrets, capable of individual elevation in order to straddle quickly. In addition, Main battery are gyro-stabilized to make aiming easier.

Main belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 16 ft.

Muy interesante.

[Logi]

Shave that weight! Wheeler-weight and speed and armor. Range is shorter. Shorter target though, also fits in a type 2 dock.. Issues may start appearing about whether the quad 11" can fit, but I figure the quads are pushed up towards the center where there is enough beam.

Main is heavier, secondary is more numerous. Is the 1,500 ton shave worth the extra knot and much lower armor?

HH&LM Modern,  Armoured Cruiser laid down 1925

Displacement:
   16,500 t light; 17,378 t standard; 18,811 t normal; 19,957 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 27.40 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 169.77 m x 24.38 m  x 8.35 m

Armament:
     8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x4 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1925 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1925 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
     8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1925 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5,890 lbs / 2,671 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   410.00 ft / 124.97 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 113 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      6.74" / 171 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 1.10" / 28 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 139,016 shp / 103,706 Kw = 32.00 kts
   Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,579 tons

Complement:
   803 - 1,044

Cost:
   £5.982 million / $23.928 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 736 tons, 3.9 %
   Armour: 3,212 tons, 17.1 %
      - Belts: 1,656 tons, 8.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 881 tons, 4.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 629 tons, 3.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 46 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 4,514 tons, 24.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,510 tons, 39.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,311 tons, 12.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 529 tons, 2.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17,976 lbs / 8,154 Kg = 27.0 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 4.2 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 16.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.539
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.96 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Mid (50 %):      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Stern:      27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Average freeboard:   27.38 ft / 8.34 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 111.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 30,786 Square feet or 2,860 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 150 lbs/sq ft or 733 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.89
      - Longitudinal: 2.83
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Misc Weight (529 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
24t Torpedoes
165t Elevation-Transverse Larger Motors for Individually-Sleeved Guns, Gyro-stabilization for Main Battery Guns
15t Construction Reserve

Deck covers only armored box (410 ft), thus real armor is 1.5" (38mm) over the 410 ft of the protected box.

Main battery consists of three four-gun turrets, capable of individual elevation in order to straddle quickly. In addition, Main battery are gyro-stabilized to make aiming easier.

[Delta Force]

How do you calculate what the deck armor would be if located only in the protected zone? Are we just considering it to be like a rectangle to keep the math simple?

[Sachmle]

How do you calculate what the deck armor would be if located only in the protected zone? Are we just considering it to be like a rectangle to keep the math simple?

SWAG: 1" of armor weighs ~40lbs/sqft

[Logi]

My calculation isn't accurate at all, it's a worst case scenario. Sam's would be more accurate.

As I calculated based on armored length / total length for simplicity, that implies a linear relationship between armored box and total length, which does not take into account the BC. I suppose it would be more accurate to calculate it this way:

Total Deck Area X (Armored Length / Total Length)  / 40lb/sqft.

[P3D]

You are right (in that that it won't fit). And 8m freeboard makes the shop a very large target. What about not squeezing the ship into a 170m drydock, and accepting the weight penalty of overfiring twin turrets?

Ship laid down 1925

Displacement:
   16,387 t light; 17,263 t standard; 18,736 t normal; 19,914 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   660.00 ft / 660.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   201.17 m / 201.17 m x 22.86 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (4x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1925 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.22lbs / 15.98kg shells, 1925 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 5,888 lbs / 2,671 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   446.00 ft / 135.94 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      6.74" / 171 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.10" / 28 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 122,789 shp / 91,601 Kw = 32.00 kts
   Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,651 tons

Complement:
   799 - 1,040

Cost:
   £5.727 million / $22.907 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 736 tons, 3.9 %
   Armour: 3,750 tons, 20.0 %
      - Belts: 1,793 tons, 9.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,221 tons, 6.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 690 tons, 3.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 46 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 3,987 tons, 21.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,614 tons, 40.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,349 tons, 12.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20,034 lbs / 9,087 Kg = 30.1 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 16.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.530
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.80 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.69 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30.00 ft / 9.14 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Mid (55 %):      25.00 ft / 7.62 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.80 ft / 6.64 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,903 Square feet or 3,150 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 712 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.37
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Logi]

Twin turrets are the devil. Also, as this is a design study for the RRC, dock concerns are a valid reason to shrink ships. Designing for the ideal ship given docking capabilities of the nation it's designed for.

HH&LM Modern,  Armoured Cruiser laid down 1925

Displacement:
   19,000 t light; 19,931 t standard; 21,481 t normal; 22,721 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 86.00 ft x 29.10 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 169.77 m x 26.21 m  x 8.87 m

Armament:
      8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x4 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1925 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1925 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1925 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5,890 lbs / 2,671 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   380.00 ft / 115.82 m   17.03 ft / 5.19 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.2" / 259 mm   4.50" / 114 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.05" / 52 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 153,083 shp / 114,200 Kw = 32.00 kts
   Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,789 tons

Complement:
   886 - 1,153

Cost:
   £6.477 million / $25.910 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 736 tons, 3.4 %
   Armour: 4,573 tons, 21.3 %
      - Belts: 2,228 tons, 10.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,042 tons, 4.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,253 tons, 5.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 50 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 4,970 tons, 23.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,183 tons, 38.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,481 tons, 11.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 537 tons, 2.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     23,359 lbs / 10,596 Kg = 35.1 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.539
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.48 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.00 ft / 8.84 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   29.00 ft / 8.84 m
      - Mid (50 %):      29.00 ft / 8.84 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   29.00 ft / 8.84 m
      - Stern:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Average freeboard:   28.93 ft / 8.82 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 188.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,099 Square feet or 3,075 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 752 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.88
      - Longitudinal: 3.02
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Misc Weight (537 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
24t Torpedoes
165t Elevation-Transverse Larger Motors for Individually-Sleeved Guns, Gyro-stabilization for Main Battery Guns
25t Construction Reserve

Deck covers only armored box (380 ft), thus real armor is 3" (76mm) over the 380 ft of the protected box.

Main belt sloped externally 20 degrees, true vertical height of 16 ft.

Main battery consists of three four-gun turrets, capable of individual elevation in order to straddle quickly. In addition, Main battery are gyro-stabilized to make aiming easier.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Interesting.

Individually sleeved guns could probably be assumed by now. The first design generation of triples & quads is in service at this point, and the better range finders / plane spotting would make the individually sleeved more 'standard'.
Gyrostablized.. not sure when that came in, I thought with the USN late 1930s guns.

Conceptually I agree on the deck armor- we need a rule/formula to allow armored boxes. However, that is not the current "reality".

I had some concerns on length & secondary spots, but comparing her to a Cleveland Class CL (longer, aircraft, more turrets, 6x2 5", but similar BC) , I can see where 4x2 10.5cm can "fit".

[Delta Force]

Well, if you have noticed with some of my designs, I have been toying around with two turret concept for smaller battleships and for battlecruisers, to avoid having to use superfiring turrets. It's an idea that was considered by Austria-Hungary, since they had major limitations on shipyard size and also built battleships that were intended to serve their entire service life on the Adriatic.

[Logi]

Problem with two turret ships is that unless they are four-gun turrets, they won't have enough shells to straddle ships in decent time.

[Logi]

Interesting to note that using a quad instead of twin here actually subtracts from the strength of the ship. Perhaps the barbette hole would be too large.

Large guns on a small hull. Large enough to make everybody wary of it, fast enough to literally escape everything that's bigger and better armed. As for finding the range? It'll be difficult with 4 guns, but not many will be willing to test their luck.

What,  Pocket Battleship laid down 1925

Displacement:
   18,500 t light; 19,529 t standard; 21,061 t normal; 22,286 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 84.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 169.77 m x 25.60 m  x 8.84 m

Armament:
      4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1925 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1925 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1925 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 7,166 lbs / 3,250 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.50" / 191 mm   385.00 ft / 117.35 m   17.03 ft / 5.19 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      7.50" / 191 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.73" / 44 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 150,846 shp / 112,531 Kw = 32.00 kts
   Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,757 tons

Complement:
   873 - 1,136

Cost:
   £6.443 million / $25.773 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 757 tons, 3.6 %
   Armour: 4,159 tons, 19.7 %
      - Belts: 2,106 tons, 10.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 967 tons, 4.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,037 tons, 4.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 49 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 4,898 tons, 23.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,338 tons, 39.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,561 tons, 12.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 348 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     22,048 lbs / 10,001 Kg = 16.1 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 16.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.543
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.63 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31.00 ft / 9.45 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   29.00 ft / 8.84 m
      - Mid (50 %):      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Stern:      29.00 ft / 8.84 m
      - Average freeboard:   28.65 ft / 8.73 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 199.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 32,448 Square feet or 3,014 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 158 lbs/sq ft or 773 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.88
      - Longitudinal: 3.14
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Misc Weight (348 t):
250t FCS
25t Radar
25t Long Range Wireless
23t Construction Reserve

Deck covers only armored box (385 ft), thus real armor is 2.5" (64mm) over the 385 ft of the protected box.

Main Belt sloped 20 degrees, true vertical height is 16 ft.

[mentat]

  'What' as in WTF ?? ;D

A Glorious with some Armour - if you want Big Guns I think 6 x 320mm  would be the practical limit with resonable FC