Logi's Design Studies

[Valles]

I'm perfectly willing to accept whichever hit probabilities the mods want to impose vs ships, but the Maori design their turrets to elevate to maximum theoretical range... for purposes of shore bombardment. Hitting an immobile target should be rather simpler, shouldn't it?

[Ithekro]

You can in theory hit things farther away than 26,000 yards...just no one has ever hit a moving target from another moving object at those ranges when it comes to pre-rocket technology warships.

A battleship could in theory hit land based targets using spotter aircraft out to and a little beyond 30,000 yards.  The US 16"/50 cal on the Iowa class is suppose to be able to hit targets out to 44,000 yards (25 miles) using spotters.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
OK - let it be 26 K yards. And I was indeed thinking of ship vs ship. The Germans managed to hit a city at 120 kilometres ...
Borys

[maddox]

From ship to shore, the "record" stands for the WW I monitor HMS General Wolfe, firing her 18" gun at a target 36 000 yars inland, a bridge in Snaeskerk.

[Logi]

The ship got a whole lot fatter in order to get an additional turret in and some more speed squeezed out.

Now it's a full-fledged fast battleship rather than a commerce raider / pocket battleship.

Misty Dragon, RRC Fast Battleship laid down 1922

Displacement:
    34,000 t light; 35,513 t standard; 37,015 t normal; 38,217 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
    711.00 ft / 690.00 ft x 101.00 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
    216.71 m / 210.31 m x 30.78 m  x 9.45 m

Armament:
      9 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1922 Model
      Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
      on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
      Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1922 Model
      Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
      on side, all amidships
    Weight of broadside 17,010 lbs / 7,716 kg
    Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:        Width (max)    Length (avg)        Height (avg)
    Main:    12.0" / 305 mm    447.00 ft / 136.25 m    19.16 ft / 5.84 m
    Ends:    Unarmoured
      Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
        2.50" / 64 mm    447.00 ft / 136.25 m    36.00 ft / 10.97 m

   - Gun armour:    Face (max)    Other gunhouse (avg)    Barbette/hoist (max)
    Main:    16.0" / 406 mm    9.00" / 229 mm        14.0" / 356 mm
    2nd:    2.00" / 51 mm    1.00" / 25 mm        1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
    Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
    Direct drive, 4 shafts, 140,000 shp / 104,440 Kw = 29.42 kts
    Range 7,500nm at 12.00 kts
    Bunker at max displacement = 2,704 tons

Complement:
    1,333 - 1,734

Cost:
    £9.213 million / $36.853 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
    Armament: 1,814 tons, 4.9 %
    Armour: 12,892 tons, 34.8 %
       - Belts: 4,467 tons, 12.1 %
       - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,489 tons, 4.0 %
       - Armament: 3,094 tons, 8.4 %
       - Armour Deck: 3,771 tons, 10.2 %
       - Conning Tower: 72 tons, 0.2 %
    Machinery: 4,749 tons, 12.8 %
    Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,233 tons, 38.5 %
    Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,015 tons, 8.1 %
    Miscellaneous weights: 312 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
    Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
      45,607 lbs / 20,687 Kg = 33.2 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 7.1 torpedoes
    Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
    Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
    Roll period: 17.6 seconds
    Steadiness    - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
            - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
    Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
    Hull has a flush deck
    Block coefficient: 0.600
    Length to Beam Ratio: 6.83 : 1
    'Natural speed' for length: 26.27 kts
    Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
    Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
    Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
    Stern overhang: 4.90 ft / 1.49 m
    Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
       - Stem:        23.00 ft / 7.01 m
       - Forecastle (20 %):    23.00 ft / 7.01 m
       - Mid (50 %):        23.00 ft / 7.01 m
       - Quarterdeck (15 %):    23.00 ft / 7.01 m
       - Stern:        22.00 ft / 6.71 m
       - Average freeboard:    22.93 ft / 6.99 m
    Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
    Space    - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.2 %
        - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 167.5 %
    Waterplane Area: 50,954 Square feet or 4,734 Square metres
    Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
    Structure weight / hull surface area: 198 lbs/sq ft or 968 Kg/sq metre
    Hull strength (Relative):
        - Cross-sectional: 0.95
        - Longitudinal: 1.55
        - Overall: 1.00
    Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
    Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Logi]

The somewhat larger but faster pocket battleship version:

The high speed allows it to dictate the range at which it fights, making it so the ranges are typically very large, so the chance of hitting belt is very small. Thus hits will be established on the tough 4" deck instead of the comparatively thin *' sloped @ 20 degrees main belt.

The guns are mounted fore and aft, so firing is possible when rushing and retreating.

Misty Dragon, RRC Fast Battleship laid down 1922

Displacement:
    26,000 t light; 27,122 t standard; 28,475 t normal; 29,557 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
    719.60 ft / 700.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
    219.34 m / 213.36 m x 27.43 m  x 8.84 m

Armament:
      6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1922 Model
      Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
      on centreline, evenly spread
      20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1922 Model
      Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
      on side, all amidships
    Weight of broadside 12,060 lbs / 5,470 kg
    Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:        Width (max)    Length (avg)        Height (avg)
    Main:    8.00" / 203 mm    487.00 ft / 148.44 m    19.16 ft / 5.84 m
    Ends:    Unarmoured
      Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
        2.00" / 51 mm    420.00 ft / 128.02 m    34.00 ft / 10.36 m

   - Gun armour:    Face (max)    Other gunhouse (avg)    Barbette/hoist (max)
    Main:    16.0" / 406 mm    8.00" / 203 mm        14.0" / 356 mm
    2nd:    2.00" / 51 mm    1.00" / 25 mm        1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
    Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
    Direct drive, 4 shafts, 122,682 shp / 91,520 Kw = 30.00 kts
    Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
    Bunker at max displacement = 2,436 tons

Complement:
    1,095 - 1,424

Cost:
    £7.047 million / $28.187 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
    Armament: 1,299 tons, 4.6 %
    Armour: 9,294 tons, 32.6 %
       - Belts: 3,147 tons, 11.1 %
       - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,057 tons, 3.7 %
       - Armament: 1,791 tons, 6.3 %
       - Armour Deck: 3,240 tons, 11.4 %
       - Conning Tower: 60 tons, 0.2 %
    Machinery: 4,162 tons, 14.6 %
    Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,934 tons, 38.4 %
    Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,475 tons, 8.7 %
    Miscellaneous weights: 312 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
    Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
      33,381 lbs / 15,141 Kg = 24.3 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
    Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
    Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
    Roll period: 16.9 seconds
    Steadiness    - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
            - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
    Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
    Hull has a flush deck
    Block coefficient: 0.545
    Length to Beam Ratio: 7.78 : 1
    'Natural speed' for length: 26.46 kts
    Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
    Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
    Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 35.00 degrees
    Stern overhang: 5.60 ft / 1.71 m
    Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
       - Stem:        20.00 ft / 6.10 m
       - Forecastle (20 %):    20.00 ft / 6.10 m
       - Mid (50 %):        20.00 ft / 6.10 m
       - Quarterdeck (15 %):    20.00 ft / 6.10 m
       - Stern:        20.00 ft / 6.10 m
       - Average freeboard:    20.00 ft / 6.10 m
    Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
    Space    - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.8 %
        - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.3 %
    Waterplane Area: 43,782 Square feet or 4,067 Square metres
    Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
    Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 850 Kg/sq metre
    Hull strength (Relative):
        - Cross-sectional: 0.97
        - Longitudinal: 1.30
        - Overall: 1.00
    Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
    Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Jefgte]

I like the concept.

IMO,
This is a BC, not a BB.
I decrease deck armor & increase belt armor.


Jef

[Laertes]

I think I'm in love.

[ctwaterman]

I think it takes about 4 Knots of extra speed to clearly dictate range on an opponent and still maintain open firing arcs of course I could be wrong .  All told this ship is nice but does not out class ships laid down in some cases already.  She is counting on achieving deck hits on an Enemy Ship while resisting the same from her opponent.   

I Believe Korpen [Dutch] Battle Cruisers/Armored Frigates were meant to do that as well but they had a significant advantage in fire power, speed, and Fire Control when they were first laid down.  Something that time has erroded.

All total Misty Dragon is a nice ship but one that wont be completed until 1925 at the earliest.   Ships laid down by other powers recently can handle this ships in a strait up fight.  Now I will admit most of them out weight the Misty Dragon by 10K Tons Light Displacement.   So she is a nice ship for her tonnage but she doesnt want to fight either the UNK Hoods, the Dutch Dereuyters I Believe or I think a couple of the other new laydowns that are already under construction.

She is a well designed Light Battle Cruiser with 6 Guns.

Charles

[Nobody]

Ahoj!
OK - let it be 26 K yards. And I was indeed thinking of ship vs ship. The Germans managed to hit a city at 120 kilometres ...
Borys

Actually they managed not to hit a city at 120 km. Out of a hundred or so shells only a handful hit central Paris (several kilometers in diameter!).

P.S.:
Wikipedia gives somewhat more optimistic numbers, I will have to check my books at the weekend.

[ctwaterman]

Ahoj!
OK - let it be 26 K yards. And I was indeed thinking of ship vs ship. The Germans managed to hit a city at 120 kilometres ...
Borys

Actually they managed not to hit a city at 120 km. Out of a hundred or so shells only a handful hit central Paris (several kilometers in diameter!).

P.S.:
Wikipedia gives somewhat more optimistic numbers, I will have to check my books at the weekend.

When your throwing a shell as small as the Paris Gun did does it really matter how many hit... other then the inconvenience of an occasional light shell landing somewhere near Paris it was really a waste of time and money.  But I guess it was good for Hun morale were shelling Paris and an irritant to French Morale the Huns are shelling Paris.... ;)

[Nobody]

Ahoj!
OK - let it be 26 K yards. And I was indeed thinking of ship vs ship. The Germans managed to hit a city at 120 kilometres ...
Borys

Actually they managed not to hit a city at 120 km. Out of a hundred or so shells only a handful hit central Paris (several kilometers in diameter!).

P.S.:
Wikipedia gives somewhat more optimistic numbers, I will have to check my books at the weekend.

Ok, found the book. Let me 'quote':
"Out of 303 fired shells only 183 hit the ~90 km diameter sized core of Paris"

[Sachmle]

That's still ~60% accuracy at 120km....

[Nobody]

That's still ~60% accuracy at 120km....

I wouldn't call that accuracy.
Look at it this way: It's the same as shooting at a 3 meter sized target from 4 meters away and missing(!) nearly half of the time.

[ctwaterman]

It is not the bullet with your name on it that you need to fear.

It is the Grenade, Artillary Shell, or Bomb address to whom it may concern,
or dear occupant....