Logi's Design Studies

[Walter]

I'd say the rules do not allow CVs built to mercantile standard - no way you could have all aviation equipment covered by a mere 2% of displacement.

I totally agree. That merchant rule is obviously there to prevent anyone from using it to build really cheap carriers.

... and as for M's Baoying desing, I think twenty 75mm guns is a bit too much...

[The Rock Doctor]

I will ponder the carrier design question and get back to everybody - I thought I had a bit of time for this giving how little historical work was happening in 1915.

In the interim, read Rick Robinson's springstyle notes on carrier design, assume all costs will be full/military, do not design armored-box carriers, and do not assume that bunkerage can be used to offset aviation-related weights.

It may not turn out this way, but you'll be safer if you assume it will.

[maddox]

It's clear that Baoying ain't in the spirit of the Nverse. And the reason I posted it was to get this in the open again.

Also, it's clear that Springsharp isn't the best thing to design carriers with.

Historicaly seen, there were classes of small carriers based on merchant hulls, bit those ships carried a dozen + a few aircraft, not the 60 to 90 for fleet carriers. Also, these were WWII rush jobs.

[Logi]

CL/Raider

Wu, RRC Fog Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   8,668 t light; 9,033 t standard; 9,840 t normal; 10,485 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   570.00 ft / 570.00 ft x 57.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
   173.74 m / 173.74 m x 17.37 m  x 6.10 m

Armament:
      18 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6 mounts), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 4 raised guns - superfiring
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 1,998 lbs / 906 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   490.00 ft / 149.35 m   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 132 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 66,301 shp / 49,461 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,453 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   493 - 642

Cost:
   £1.333 million / $5.331 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 250 tons, 2.5 %
   Armour: 1,951 tons, 19.8 %
      - Belts: 1,410 tons, 14.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 89 tons, 0.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 412 tons, 4.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 40 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 2,879 tons, 29.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,339 tons, 33.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,172 tons, 11.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 2.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,210 lbs / 2,817 Kg = 57.5 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 14.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.530
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 130.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,255 Square feet or 2,068 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 97 lbs/sq ft or 474 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.05
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[P3D]

Mount with hoist can come only in single and twin varieties. So you need 9 mounts total. I'd also quote Borys signature - before he changes that to

BLOOD! BLOOD! KILL! MAIM! BURN! KILL! BLOOD!

Good to see a a design with more guns than what Korpen could think up, BTW.

[Talos]

Historicaly seen, there were classes of small carriers based on merchant hulls, bit those ships carried a dozen + a few aircraft, not the 60 to 90 for fleet carriers. Also, these were WWII rush jobs.

Don't forget USS Langley hersel. She was a modified collier (and the USN's turbine test ship), and HMS Argus was a modified liner. In the era we're simming, most carriers were still modified merchant ships of some sort (Furious excepting, of course).

[Logi]

Sha-Hay, RRC Killing Intent Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   8,000 t light; 8,295 t standard; 9,222 t normal; 9,963 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   570.00 ft / 570.00 ft x 57.00 ft x 19.00 ft (normal load)
   173.74 m / 173.74 m x 17.37 m  x 5.79 m

Armament:
      10 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (5x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 929 lbs / 421 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   365.00 ft / 111.25 m   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,347 shp / 36,067 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,668 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   469 - 611

Cost:
   £1.041 million / $4.166 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 116 tons, 1.3 %
   Armour: 1,866 tons, 20.2 %
      - Belts: 1,097 tons, 11.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 117 tons, 1.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 613 tons, 6.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 38 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 2,417 tons, 26.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,285 tons, 35.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,222 tons, 13.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 316 tons, 3.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,886 lbs / 4,484 Kg = 158.2 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 13.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.24
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.523
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,107 Square feet or 2,054 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 100 lbs/sq ft or 489 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.15
      - Longitudinal: 0.95
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

125t Construction Reserve
8t Torpedo Tubes
18t Torpedo (18)
25t Long-Range Wireless
100t Mines (100)
40t Extra Blige Pumps

[Tanthalas]

Why build the AA cruiser USS Atlanta now?

[P3D]

Because the low-angle, long-barreled (thus slow-training) 5"s would be perfect for AA work even without any AA fire director or proximity-fused shells.

[Tanthalas]

Because the low-angle, long-barreled (thus slow-training) 5"s would be perfect for AA work even without any AA fire director or proximity-fused shells.

the atlanta referance was due to the layout (its exactly the same) although the ship is longer, wider, and shalower.  it also weighs in at close to 2K more mass.  I just dont personaly see the need for a CL on CA mass...

ATM any CLs we actualy build are realy just over grown Destroyers (or atleast thats my take on nit)

[Walter]

I just dont personaly see the need for a CL on CA mass...

To me its seems like a waste of materials. ALso, RRC does not have the required tech for 3" AA guns...
... and "Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces"

[Logi]

Lighter displacement, reduced speed, fixed belt:

Sha-Hay, RRC Killing Intent Class laid down 1915 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   6,666 t light; 6,924 t standard; 7,768 t normal; 8,443 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   570.00 ft / 570.00 ft x 57.00 ft x 16.00 ft (normal load)
   173.74 m / 173.74 m x 17.37 m  x 4.88 m

Armament:
      10 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (5x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 875 lbs / 397 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   308.00 ft / 93.88 m   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 83 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32,844 shp / 24,502 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,519 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   413 - 537

Cost:
   £0.807 million / $3.230 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 109 tons, 1.4 %
   Armour: 1,509 tons, 19.4 %
      - Belts: 951 tons, 12.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 115 tons, 1.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 409 tons, 5.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 34 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,642 tons, 21.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,231 tons, 41.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,102 tons, 14.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 174 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     11,453 lbs / 5,195 Kg = 183.2 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
   Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 12.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.20
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.523
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,110 Square feet or 2,054 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 133 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 103 lbs/sq ft or 501 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.24
      - Longitudinal: 0.93
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

125t Construction Reserve
25t Long-Range Wireless
8t TT (8)
16t Torpedoes (16)

@Walter
What tech would I need for 3" AA guns?
@Tan
The layout of the ship is much closer to the HMS Emerald layout than the Atlanta. But I agree, to me CLs are, in effect, overgrown DDs.

[Walter]

Anti-aircraft gun and altitudes
Baseline (0): High angle anti-ballon guns or machine guns (up to 1 pounders) = 1,000 feet - starting point for everyone.
High-angle anti-balloon guns are perfect for that role.
1908 Advanced (+1): High angle anti-air guns (20-40mm) = 5,000 feet
1914 Cutting Edge (+3): High angle artillery (40-80mm) = 15,000 feet
1925 Futuristic (+5): High altitude artillery (80mm+) = 30,000 feet

[Logi]

Ah, I forgot about that tech  :D

[P3D]

Baseline (0): High angle anti-ballon guns