Logi's Design Studies

[Logi]

Project JL20-G, ??? Frigate Hunter laid down 1922

Displacement:
   35,000 t light; 37,301 t standard; 39,764 t normal; 41,734 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   820.21 ft / 820.21 ft x 98.43 ft x 31.50 ft (normal load)
   250.00 m / 250.00 m x 30.00 m  x 9.60 m

Armament:
      8 - 15.75" / 400 mm guns (2x4 guns), 1,952.76lbs / 885.76kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      20 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (10x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 17,705 lbs / 8,031 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   564.30 ft / 172.00 m   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   255.91 ft / 78.00 m   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
     Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   564.30 ft / 172.00 m   32.81 ft / 10.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   7.09" / 180 mm      11.0" / 280 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 141,385 shp / 105,473 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,433 tons

Complement:
   1,407 - 1,830

Cost:
   £10.242 million / $40.969 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,213 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 11,797 tons, 29.7 %
      - Belts: 4,408 tons, 11.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,348 tons, 3.4 %
      - Armament: 1,848 tons, 4.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,093 tons, 10.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 99 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 4,796 tons, 12.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,822 tons, 39.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,764 tons, 12.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 372 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     42,890 lbs / 19,455 Kg = 22.0 x 15.7 " / 400 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 17.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.547
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28.64 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.86 ft / 5.75 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Stern:      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.53 ft / 5.65 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 56,201 Square feet or 5,221 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 203 lbs/sq ft or 990 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.03
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[mentat]

  Looks good - but i think tweak up MB by 20-30 mm - looking bit too thin right now ....

[Logi]

It's sloped 20 degrees, wouldn't the effective thickness be enough?

For reference, it's LOS thickness is 319.25mm or 12.56".

[Logi]

MB sloped 20 degrees, LOS thickness is 12.77". Improved KC armor, effective thickness = 14.05"

Using the 1% rule of the Richmond Naval Treaty.

FBB22,  Fast Battleship laid down 1922

Displacement:
   35,460 t light; 37,343 t standard; 42,208 t normal; 46,100 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   800.00 ft / 800.00 ft x 104.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
   243.84 m / 243.84 m x 31.70 m  x 9.75 m

Armament:
     9 - 15.50" / 394 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,951.00lbs / 884.96kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
     20 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (10x2 guns), 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
     8 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 18,484 lbs / 8,384 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   456.00 ft / 138.99 m   17.02 ft / 5.19 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   344.00 ft / 104.85 m   17.02 ft / 5.19 m
     Main Belt covers 88 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   456.00 ft / 138.99 m   35.00 ft / 10.67 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

  - Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 114,529 shp / 85,439 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 24,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 8,757 tons

Complement:
   1,472 - 1,914

Cost:
   £9.932 million / $39.727 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,210 tons, 5.2 %
   Armour: 12,470 tons, 29.5 %
      - Belts: 4,741 tons, 11.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 886 tons, 2.1 %
      - Armament: 2,423 tons, 5.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,316 tons, 10.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 104 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 3,885 tons, 9.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,488 tons, 39.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,748 tons, 16.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 407 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     57,827 lbs / 26,230 Kg = 31.1 x 15.5 " / 394 mm shells or 8.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.0 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.71
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.555
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.69 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Forecastle (30 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Stern:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.60 ft / 6.58 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 58,330 Square feet or 5,419 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 202 lbs/sq ft or 988 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.17
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Logi]

How's this Nobody?

MB sloped 20 degrees, vertical height is 14' (apologizes, I can't work well in metric so I can't tell the protection heights in metric), LOS thickness is 324.57mm.

If it were possible I would simulate this as a 14" main belt slimming to 10" belt at the bottom, but I fear the stability etc. readings would be off.

Project JL20-H, Orange BB laid down 1920

Displacement:
   35,000 t light; 36,668 t standard; 38,332 t normal; 39,663 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.78 ft / 721.78 ft x 108.27 ft x 31.17 ft (normal load)
   220.00 m / 220.00 m x 33.00 m  x 9.50 m

Armament:
     12 - 15.98" / 406 mm guns (3x4 guns), 2,116.44lbs / 960.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
     12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 105.82lbs / 48.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
     4 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 26,775 lbs / 12,145 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 60

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   469.16 ft / 143.00 m   14.90 ft / 4.54 m
   Ends:   1.97" / 50 mm   252.62 ft / 77.00 m   14.90 ft / 4.54 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   469.16 ft / 143.00 m   36.09 ft / 11.00 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.7" / 400 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      14.0" / 355 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 4.13" / 105 mm, Conning tower: 2.99" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion motors,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 62,616 shp / 46,712 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,996 tons

Complement:
   1,369 - 1,780

Cost:
   £10.050 million / $40.199 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3,238 tons, 8.4 %
   Armour: 12,376 tons, 32.3 %
      - Belts: 3,918 tons, 10.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,233 tons, 3.2 %
      - Armament: 2,977 tons, 7.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,174 tons, 10.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 73 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 2,189 tons, 5.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 16,874 tons, 44.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,332 tons, 8.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 322 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     40,769 lbs / 18,493 Kg = 20.0 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 6.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.0 m
   Roll period: 17.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.551
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.67 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.51 ft / 5.03 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 54,580 Square feet or 5,071 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 89 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 237 lbs/sq ft or 1,156 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.16
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Logi]

MB sloped 20 degrees, vertical height is 16', LOS thickness is 11.7".
Bow is armored and strengthened by the 2" end belt but the stern is not armored.

Immunity against own guns from approximately 8500 yds to 25,340 yds
Immunity against CSA 13.5" guns from approximately 13,000 yds to 22,700 yds

This is a design study for a ~20 kton "heavy cruiser" with a decent speed, good protection, but somewhat light guns. The role would be as flexibility for usage as a battlecruiser, cruiser killer (if it can catch one), and a battle-line substitute whilst keeping tonnage low.

How do you think this design would fare?

Project 22CA - T20, Paper Study Heavy Cruiser laid down 1921

Displacement:
   23,000 t light; 23,840 t standard; 25,076 t normal; 26,065 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   620.00 ft / 620.00 ft x 91.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
   188.98 m / 188.98 m x 27.74 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
     8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 7,477 lbs / 3,392 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80
   8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   405.00 ft / 123.44 m   17.02 ft / 5.19 m
   Ends:   2.00" / 51 mm   124.00 ft / 37.80 m   17.02 ft / 5.19 m
     91.00 ft / 27.74 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   405.00 ft / 123.44 m   35.00 ft / 10.67 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      12.0" / 305 mm

  - Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 90,620 shp / 67,603 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,226 tons

Complement:
   996 - 1,295

Cost:
   £5.160 million / $20.638 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 935 tons, 3.7 %
   Armour: 9,533 tons, 38.0 %
      - Belts: 3,429 tons, 13.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,049 tons, 4.2 %
      - Armament: 2,152 tons, 8.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,829 tons, 11.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 74 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 3,121 tons, 12.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,001 tons, 35.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,076 tons, 8.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 411 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     34,761 lbs / 15,767 Kg = 40.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 6.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.519
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.81 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.90 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.51 ft / 6.25 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 38,236 Square feet or 3,552 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 162 lbs/sq ft or 790 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.55
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Delta Force]

It's a good design, I would just be very careful around anything packing a 14 inch gun or larger. Not sure how many ships pack such guns in game, but historically this design would be limited to hunting down early battlecruisers and heavy cruisers. Personally, I wouldn't make anything that isn't a super-dreadnought or super-battlecruiser once the 14 inch gun is invented, especially with what are essentially super-super-battleships and battlecruisers coming out with the 16 and 18 inch guns. Going up against a super dreadnought would be dangerous enough, but something armed with 16 or 18 inch guns would surely be fatal for this ship, and I am not sure it would have enough speed to be able to run away from such ships every time.

[Logi]

It's armored as well as a 14-18" battleship nearly, that's why I mention it can be used to substitute in a battle line. But it lacks the firepower of a real battleship. Adding 14" or 16" guns would require a much larger ship, hence my choose to stay with the 12".

As I wrote with the immunity zone, even against the heavy CSA 13.5" it has a very large IZ. The CSA 13.5" weights more than the standard 14" and has better penetration at longer ranges.

By comparison, the same ship with 13.5" Heavy guns. Question is if the extra 5000 total tonnage is worth it.

Project 22CA - T20, Paper Study Battlecruiser laid down 1921

Displacement:
   27,000 t light; 28,155 t standard; 29,535 t normal; 30,639 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   650.00 ft / 650.00 ft x 95.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
   198.12 m / 198.12 m x 28.96 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
     8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1921 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (8x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1921 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 12,565 lbs / 5,699 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80
   8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   422.00 ft / 128.63 m   17.02 ft / 5.19 m
   Ends:   2.00" / 51 mm   130.00 ft / 39.62 m   17.02 ft / 5.19 m
     98.00 ft / 29.87 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   422.00 ft / 128.63 m   35.00 ft / 10.67 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      12.0" / 305 mm

  - Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 100,218 shp / 74,763 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,484 tons

Complement:
   1,126 - 1,464

Cost:
   £6.417 million / $25.667 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,301 tons, 4.4 %
   Armour: 10,503 tons, 35.6 %
      - Belts: 3,587 tons, 12.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,093 tons, 3.7 %
      - Armament: 2,528 tons, 8.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,213 tons, 10.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 82 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 3,451 tons, 11.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,364 tons, 38.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,535 tons, 8.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 381 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39,579 lbs / 17,953 Kg = 32.2 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 6.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 17.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.558
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.84 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.50 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Stern:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.16 ft / 6.45 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 43,420 Square feet or 4,034 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 184 lbs/sq ft or 897 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.53
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Logi]

Armed with a mythical 5"/77 gun with a 87.5lb superheavy shell, this is a 5-incher that can take on battleship decks and cruiser belts. It keeps the higher RoF of a 5-incher whilst being a better gun than a typical 6-incher. (It should penetrate ~6" belt at 8000 yds and ~7.5" deck at max range of ~34,000 yds)

A 5"/77 would weight about 18t more than a 5"/45. I'm assuming the standard in Springsharp is a 45 cal gun so I've included the additional weight of the guns in the Misc Weight.

Btw:

	KK1921b	Taranto	Leipzig	U1922A
Main Battery	8x150	8x140	8x150(x2)	12x127	Adv Leipzig (L-K-T-U)
Secondary	4x88	none	8x105	none	Adv Leipzig (L-K-T/U)
Tertirary	2x37	none	2x37	none	Tie KK1921b-Leipzig (K/L-T/U)
Speed	31	32	28	30	Adv Taranto (T-K-U-L)
Main Belt	75	57	75	81.1	Adv U1922A (U-K/L-T)
Belt Length	120.25	130.69	110	106.68	Adv Taranto (T-K-L-U)
Belt Height	3.5	4.54	3.0	4.88	Adv U1922A (U-T-K-L)
Deck	25	38	30	25	Adv Taranto (T-L-K/U)
Range	10,000@15	9,000@14	5,000@12.5	8,000@14	Adv KK1921b (K-T-U-L)
Ammo Load	250	200	154	250	Tie KK1921b-U1922A (K/U-T-L)
CT armor	100	76	50	102	Adv U1922A (U-K-T-L)
Mines	70	100	0	0	Adv Taranto (T-K-L/U)
Stability	1.21	1.17	1.22	1.12	Adv Leipzig (L-K-T-U)
Steadiness	70	70	70	70	Wash (K/T/L/U)
Seakeeping	1.11	1.06	1.04	1.21	Adv U1922A (U-K-T-L)
Survivability Shell	3,852	3,313	3,973	4,416	Adv U1922A (U-L-K-T)
Survivability Torp	1.3	1.1	0.8	1.4	Adv U1922A (U-K-T-L)
Total	40	32	25	44	Adv U1922A ( U-K-T-L)

Scoring 3 pt for 1st, 2 pt for 2nd, 1 pt for 3rd, and 0 pt for last place.

U1922A, Unknown Light Cruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
   6,700 t light; 7,003 t standard; 7,831 t normal; 8,494 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   540.00 ft / 540.00 ft x 55.00 ft x 18.30 ft (normal load)
   164.59 m / 164.59 m x 16.76 m  x 5.58 m

Armament:
     12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 87.50lbs / 39.69kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 1,050 lbs / 476 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   8 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   350.00 ft / 106.68 m   17.03 ft / 5.19 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
    Main Belt sloped 20 degrees, Belt Height = 16.00 ft / 4.88 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

  - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 58,340 shp / 43,522 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,491 tons

Complement:
   416 - 541

Cost:
   £1.610 million / $6.440 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 94 tons, 1.2 %
   Armour: 1,314 tons, 16.8 %
      - Belts: 746 tons, 9.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 167 tons, 2.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 368 tons, 4.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 34 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,979 tons, 25.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,919 tons, 37.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,131 tons, 14.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 394 tons, 5.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,735 lbs / 4,416 Kg = 155.8 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 1.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 14.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.504
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.82 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.24 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Stern:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.83 ft / 5.74 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 19,866 Square feet or 1,846 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 90 lbs/sq ft or 440 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.41
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Sachmle]

Interesting design. Not sure on the "Super 5" though. I see you went turret and barbette so you could get power loading/ramming, but someone still has to lump those 87+lbs shells onto the hoist from the magazine. Not inhuman, I know, but they're still heavy.

Also, Leipzig only has 12x150, 4 singles and 8 casemates. Still only 8 on a broadside.

[Logi]

The "Super 5" is based on the 5.5cm/77 Gerat 58 of the KM during WW2. The longer barrel means better belt penetration at short distance and ranges that compete with battleship ranges. The superheavy just has much better performance vs belt and deck at any distance.

You are correct about the 87+lb shells being heavy, but I figure with power loading/ramming it's going to have a decent RoF compared to a normal 5-incher and even better vs a 6-incher.

On the Leipzig's broadside, you are correct on that as well. But I gave it the better hand out of theorical values. But if it were discounted then it would be:

Tie KK1921b-Leipzig (K/L-T-U)

Which would change the scores to be 41-33-25-44.

If I used broadside weight (amount you can bring to bear on one side) then the it would be:

Adv U1922A (U-K/L-T)

Which would further change the scores to be 43-34-27-47.

[Sachmle]

Have you figured in gun armor?

[Logi]

Not at all, but glancing at it should lead to this:

Counting the Gun Armor:

Adv Taranto (T-K-U-L)

Which should change the score further to 45-37-27-48

The all the gun armor scores are the same with Taranto leading the pack, the KK1921b following closely, the U1922A a spot back, and the Leipzig out of sight in terms of gun protection. I dare say it's nonexistent on the Leipzig.

I should factor in the number of guns as the U1922A can take more guns out of action than other ships (other than the Leipzig but then it has to turn and it has less armor overall).

[Logi]

How much can I shrink a battleship whilst keeping good armor, speed, and firepower?

This is the sim for the concept. Advantage is that it relatively well armor with large firepower and a semi-high speed. It takes significantly less time to build than a 35 kt monster and sports more firepower per tonnage as well.

Minimalist Concept Study,  Fast "Pocket" Battleship laid down 1923

Displacement:
   23,000 t light; 24,245 t standard; 25,495 t normal; 26,495 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   680.00 ft / 680.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
   207.26 m / 207.26 m x 26.82 m  x 8.23 m

Armament:
      6 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,048.00lbs / 928.96kg shells, 1923 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1923 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1923 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mount
     on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 13,065 lbs / 5,926 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   450.00 ft / 137.16 m   17.03 ft / 5.19 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length
     Main Belt sloped 20 degrees externally, vertical height of 16 ft.

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   450.00 ft / 137.16 m   32.00 ft / 9.75 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm   0.50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 66,384 shp / 49,523 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,250 tons

Complement:
   1,008 - 1,311

Cost:
   £7.236 million / $28.945 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,633 tons, 6.4 %
   Armour: 8,603 tons, 33.7 %
      - Belts: 3,919 tons, 15.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 799 tons, 3.1 %
      - Armament: 1,506 tons, 5.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,323 tons, 9.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 2,219 tons, 8.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,241 tons, 40.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,495 tons, 9.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 305 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29,656 lbs / 13,452 Kg = 14.5 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.552
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.73 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.08 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 41,852 Square feet or 3,888 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 179 lbs/sq ft or 876 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.09
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Delta Force]

Very nice. I actually noticed the same thing myself with the 18 inch gun. I was able to make a 10,000 ton monitor with pretty decent armor (better than a heavy cruiser's) but a 40,000 ton fast battleship was only able to hold six 18 inch guns.

I guess it kind of reflects something that holds true with rockets (and really with any kind of means of cargo transport), which is that in order to make a rocket have a larger payload you have to increase the fuel stores and power, which then ends up making the rocket body larger and more reinforced, which then requires more fuel and power, in a case of diminishing returns.