Logi's Design Studies

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Interesting battleship.
Why the "pocket"?
Borys

[maddox]

External Vertical Belt  is 1.25" - A Decapping Plate - Noted in SS as upper belt, located in front of Main Belt - thickness is enough to decap projectiles up to 15.5"

Good idea, but no fights were fought to gather this kind of "needed" information.
Also, upper belt is located above waterline.  It changes the Springsharp staility and steadiness equations a lot.  
A more logical approach would have been a thicker belt.

[Sachmle]

I think you boogered up you turret layout. It says 12 guns (3 mounts) 1 raised gun. I think you meant for 1 raised mount.

[TexanCowboy]

I was about to say!  ;D All forward? That's odd. Going for the Nelson?

[Kaiser Kirk]

External Vertical Belt  is 1.25" - A Decapping Plate - Noted in SS as upper belt, located in front of Main Belt - thickness is enough to decap projectiles up to 15.5"

Good idea, but no fights were fought to gather this kind of "needed" information.
Also, upper belt is located above waterline.  It changes the Springsharp staility and steadiness equations a lot.  
A more logical approach would have been a thicker belt.

I'll also point out it's unusual foresight considering you haven't started digesting 1905 AP shells, much less 1908 capped shells.  Even then you need to understand the forces to precisely calculate how big a cap can be removed, and the space between the two sets of armor necessary to allow the cap to separate from the shell sufficiently to make a difference.   I'm guessing it's some hidden future armor tech.

[Logi]

No, no I was noting that NavWeap says 1.25" decapping plate and decap projectiles up to 15". IC, the RRC probably doesn't know but we know decapping plates exist so we try to put a decapping plate ahead of the belt. Regardless we would try to put more than an inch for the purpose because we don't know how much we need. I would have probably given it 1.5" without knowing anything, which then decaps projectiles up to 18.6".

But you have a point about the distances. Well as I would have finished digested the capped shell tech when this ship is laid down, then I guess we would know somewhat.

I'm probably a bit wrong on the numbers but I'm just noting the armour scheme of the ship.

No, I've already digested the 1905 AP shells, but I've suspend the Capped shells for quite some time (2~3 years already?)

Pocket is because of the fact that its not armoured heavily enough to be considered a true battleship, but not yet fast enough to be considered a battlecruiser. As the tonnage is quite small, I call it a pocket battleship.

And yes Texan, it does save weight (about 1~2 k tons)

Juren, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   24,500 t light; 26,280 t standard; 27,793 t normal; 29,003 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 167.64 m x 27.43 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
      12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
     Main guns limited to end-on fire
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 21,674 lbs / 9,831 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   385.00 ft / 117.35 m   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1.25" / 32 mm   385.00 ft / 117.35 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   385.00 ft / 117.35 m   33.00 ft / 10.06 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -         0.50" / 13 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 41,506 shp / 30,964 Kw = 22.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,723 tons

Complement:
   1,076 - 1,399

Cost:
   £5.999 million / $23.996 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,292 tons, 8.2 %
   Armour: 9,244 tons, 33.3 %
      - Belts: 3,743 tons, 13.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 940 tons, 3.4 %
      - Armament: 2,209 tons, 7.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,114 tons, 7.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 237 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,546 tons, 5.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,044 tons, 39.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,293 tons, 11.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 373 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29,366 lbs / 13,320 Kg = 21.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1.05
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.16

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.655
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.04 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.51 ft / 5.34 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 38,096 Square feet or 3,539 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 210 lbs/sq ft or 1,025 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 1.95
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Main Belt is Sloped at 20 Degrees (Internal) - So the vertical length of such a belt is 16 feet
External Vertical Belt  is 1.25" - A Decapping Plate - Noted in SS as upper belt, located in front of Main Belt - thickness is enough to decap projectiles up to 15.5"

Main Guns are to fire in Salvo's not broadsides as it is expected to put the ship is a dangerous list.

178.5 feet : Three guns together (10 ft of space between each gun)
100 feet: Superstructure Length
110 feet: Forecastle
55 feet: Quarterdeck
Total Neccesary Space: 443.5 feet
Remaining space for Miscellanous: 106.5 feet

Misc Weights (369t):
250t Primary FCS
25t Long-Range Wireless
25t Radar
12t 21" Torpedoes
22t Extra Pumps
10t Flag Facilities
  4t Climatization
15t Reserve Weight

[Kaiser Kirk]

No, I've already digested the 1905 AP shells, but I've suspend the Capped shells for quite some time (2~3 years already?)

Hmm, I had missed your HY2/17 report, and was going from the HY1/17 report, which showed you hadn't started digesting the 1905 AP, yet it disappears entirely in your HY2 Report.  So I'm confused.

From HY 1 :

....
$0 for 1905: Armour-Piercing (1 yrs)

$0 for 1912 Sloped external belts; "All or Nothing" Protective Schemes
$0 for 1913: (+5) 15000@26, 10000@30,7000@35, 200kg warhead (+1), 2t, 21"
$0 for 1908: Cutting Edge (+3): Capped shells

[Logi]

Darn, I realized I forgot to change some of the values while I was doing it. It's researched, now worries, I need to edit my reports. Bah teach me to do reports freehand :P

[Logi]

Here's a drawing of the Greater Juren.


1 pixel = 1 feet

As you can see the belt is located typical RRC style, 6ft under waterline, 10 ft above. The RRC usually keeps 5ft under waterline.

[Logi]

As I'm actually going to lay this down, I ask if there's any more criticism (of the ship itself). I would appreciate working out anything unfavorable before laying it down. :/

[Sachmle]

As I'm actually going to lay this down, I ask if there's any more criticism (of the ship itself). I would appreciate working out anything unfavorable before laying it down. :/

Well 1st of all there's the crappy NelRod gun layout. Then there are the quads. Then the massive recoil they create. Do you have triples? Hell, even 3 twins forward and 1 twin aft would be better than 3x4. To much top weight. She need to be wider, but you're L/B is already high, or low depending on the way you look at it.

[Tanthalas]

As I'm actually going to lay this down, I ask if there's any more criticism (of the ship itself). I would appreciate working out anything unfavorable before laying it down. :/

wouldnt adding the 1.25" to the MB instead of using it as an upper belt bew better for simulating a decaping belt? just make a note that thats what it is I tend to agree with sam on the Nel/Rod Layout and Quads... (Quads are just evil...)

[The Rock Doctor]

Actually, yeah - I don't think she's wide enough for quad 14".  The 20 degree belt doesn't help.

[Logi]

Well using a NelRod layout saves me ~0.12 on the composite strength that's quite a few k tons.

No I don't have triples, only quads. No other gun for 14" expect the quad.

I could make it wider but that would make it take up a type 3 slip and I'm trying to avoid that.

For the recoil, I'm already having the ship only fire one turret's guns at a time. Would that not work? As I recall that was how they dealt with NelRod.

But this actually isn't a NelRod layout. If I had to compare it, I would say its a Dunkerque layout since the guns are positioned forward rather than center as in NelRod. Therefore their is no mast effect as in NelRod. (My picture is a bit unfaithful to this, sorry)

The 14"/45 Quad has a 40ft inner diameter, the ship has a beam of >90ft, it fits in. I'll tweak the recoil.

I don't add the 1.25" to the MB because the decapping belt is vertical, the main external is inclined 20 degrees. Adding it to the MB would give it 1 extra ft of height for no particular reason.

----------

I revised the design to be a bit wider.

EDIT: It appears the extra feet for the decapping plate doesn't make a difference so now the decapping plate is also inclined 20 degrees. (Le Gasp)

Juren, RRC Pocket Battleship laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   24,500 t light; 26,281 t standard; 27,785 t normal; 28,989 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 553.00 ft x 92.20 ft x 31.00 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 168.55 m x 28.10 m  x 9.45 m

Armament:
     12 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x4 guns), 1,650.00lbs / 748.43kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
     12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns (6x2 guns), 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
     12 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (6x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 21,674 lbs / 9,831 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.3" / 337 mm   385.00 ft / 117.35 m   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 107 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   385.00 ft / 117.35 m   33.00 ft / 10.06 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -         0.50" / 13 mm

  - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 40,887 shp / 30,502 Kw = 22.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,708 tons

Complement:
   1,075 - 1,398

Cost:
   £5.993 million / $23.970 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,292 tons, 8.3 %
   Armour: 9,070 tons, 32.6 %
      - Belts: 3,765 tons, 13.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 940 tons, 3.4 %
      - Armament: 2,028 tons, 7.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,099 tons, 7.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 237 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,523 tons, 5.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,241 tons, 40.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,285 tons, 11.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 373 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29,894 lbs / 13,560 Kg = 21.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 16.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.95
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.615
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.52 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 8.54 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.00 ft / 0.30 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.51 ft / 5.34 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 37,825 Square feet or 3,514 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 214 lbs/sq ft or 1,045 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.07
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

Main Belt is Sloped at 20 Degrees (Internal) - So the vertical length of such a belt is 16 feet
External Vertical Belt  is 1.25" - A Decapping Plate - Noted in SS as upper belt, located in front of Main Belt - thickness is enough to decap projectiles up to 15.5"

Main Guns are to fire in Salvo's not broadsides as it is expected to put the ship is a dangerous list.

178.5 feet : Three guns together (10 ft of space between each gun)
100 feet: Superstructure Length
110 feet: Forecastle
55 feet: Quarterdeck
Total Neccesary Space: 443.5 feet
Remaining space for Miscellanous: 106.5 feet

Misc Weights (369t):
250t Primary FCS
25t Long-Range Wireless
25t Radar
12t 21" Torpedoes
22t Extra Pumps
10t Flag Facilities
 4t Climatization
15t Reserve Weight

[The Rock Doctor]

The 14"/45 Quad has a 40ft inner diameter, the ship has a beam of >90ft, it fits in.

Nobody managed to put quads of any kind on a hull less than 100' wide, and that's not considering the sloping belt.