Logi's Design Studies

[Logi]

Its called a torpedoboat for a reason Texan...

Quickly modified Design:

Biao Zhun She Ji 002, RRC TorpedoBoat Destroyer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 770 t standard; 840 t normal; 896 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   330.00 ft / 330.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 7.80 ft (normal load)
   100.58 m / 100.58 m x 9.14 m  x 2.38 m

Armament:
      2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 28 lbs / 13 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:         -            -         1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16,652 shp / 12,423 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 126 tons

   Trial Speed = 31.5 kts

Complement:
   77 - 101

Cost:
   £0.178 million / $0.710 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 tons, 0.4 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0.2 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 426 tons, 50.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 269 tons, 32.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 90 tons, 10.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 49 tons, 5.8 %
-24t Torpedoes (1t)
-25t Long-Range Wireless

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     301 lbs / 137 Kg = 23.4 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
   Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 10.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 49 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.16

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.381
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.17 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Stern:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.33 ft / 3.76 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 173.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 29.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 6,038 Square feet or 561 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 64 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 122 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.31
      - Overall: 0.55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor

[TexanCowboy]

I thought it was a TBD. Those normally have more guns and less torpedoes. If its a basic TB, yes, I like it. How did you get 18 torpedoes on a boat without the deck going negitive.

[Logi]

I acutally measured the length of typical 21" TTs and the distance they are placed from smokestacks. Basically I drew it out (on paper!) first before designing it. The deck space goes into negative when you add one more set of TTs because you need ~15 more ft to do that.

And that was my bad. I forgot to deleted the destroyer portion. I was modifying the Standard Design 001 because I kept getting weird numbers before.

[Tanthalas]

its not a bad boat, but it realy better have budies with it that have guns or once it launches its torps its going to get chewed up by the other sides DD/CL with no way of responding

[TexanCowboy]

Ok. Um, proposal. Build a equivelent number of these and ships armed to the bone with 5'' guns. I can sell you plans if you need them.

[Logi]

Guns are much heavier than torpedoes in terms of weight. Heck it is very hard to squeeze enough guns onto a DD to be "armed to the bone". Its even harder with 5"s.

So size of the DD is upped to 1000 tons. One triple tube is added so that the DL isn't entirely "bare".

Biao Zhun She Ji 003, RRC Destroyer Leader laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   1,000 t light; 1,053 t standard; 1,138 t normal; 1,206 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   375.00 ft / 375.00 ft x 34.10 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
   114.30 m / 114.30 m x 10.39 m  x 2.44 m

Armament:
     5 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 266 lbs / 120 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   3 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

  - Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19,135 shp / 14,275 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 154 tons

  Trial Speed = 31 kts

Complement:
   97 - 127

Cost:
   £0.269 million / $1.078 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 33 tons, 2.9 %
   Armour: 22 tons, 1.9 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 20 tons, 1.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 513 tons, 45.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 404 tons, 35.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 138 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 28 tons, 2.5 %
-3t Torpedoes (1t)
-25t Fire Control System

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     376 lbs / 170 Kg = 7.1 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
   Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 12.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.389
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.36 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Stern:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.72 ft / 3.88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 171.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,828 Square feet or 727 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 155 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.89
      - Overall: 0.53
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[TexanCowboy]

I like it. However, is there a point of having destroyer fire-control at this point?

[Logi]

Not like that 25t is able to go anywher else. Besides, its practically a gunboat. Gunboat with fire-control would do worse than one that had fire-control.

So, not really needed per say, but it helps and the weight can't be used elsewhere.

Unless of course, you want to add more TTs, but then it kind of kills the point of it being a gun-boat.

[TexanCowboy]

Not really. I would recommend another triple tube, making it 6 tubes.

[Logi]

Well IMO, I think the Fire-Control will help with the 5 gun setup of the DD, but I'm waiting to see what others say.

[Logi]

Ok, I turned it into this...

Biao Zhun She Ji 004, RRC TorpedoBoat Destroyer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   1,000 t light; 1,053 t standard; 1,138 t normal; 1,206 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   375.00 ft / 375.00 ft x 34.10 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
   114.30 m / 114.30 m x 10.39 m  x 2.44 m

Armament:
      5 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 266 lbs / 120 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19,135 shp / 14,275 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 154 tons

   Trial Speed = 31 kts

Complement:
   97 - 127

Cost:
   £0.270 million / $1.078 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 33 tons, 2.9 %
   Armour: 27 tons, 2.4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 25 tons, 2.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 514 tons, 45.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 405 tons, 35.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 138 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 21 tons, 1.8 %
-9t Torpedoes in Tube (9t)
-9t Reload Torpedoes (9t)
-3t Reserve Torpedoes (3t)

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     377 lbs / 171 Kg = 7.1 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
   Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 12.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.389
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.36 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Stern:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.72 ft / 3.88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 170.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,828 Square feet or 727 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 65 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 155 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.87
      - Overall: 0.52
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[TexanCowboy]

See, now I should have build that instead of my design, but considering Ukraine's destroyers, I though heavy armerment and a few torpedoes were better than copying their 5 3'' design.

[Tanthalas]

that actualy ends up looking alot like Rohans 1K ton fleet Destroyer (although with less range and a lower cruise speed)

[Logi]

This one trade range and cruise speed for higher top speed, more torpedoes, and more and higher caliber guns.

Or I could do this, just more torpedoes at the expense of accommodations space and gun armor.

Biao Zhun She Ji 004, RRC TorpedoBoat Destroyer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   1,000 t light; 1,053 t standard; 1,138 t normal; 1,206 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   375.00 ft / 375.00 ft x 34.10 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
   114.30 m / 114.30 m x 10.39 m  x 2.44 m

Armament:
      5 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.72lbs / 23.91kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 266 lbs / 120 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19,130 shp / 14,271 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 154 tons

   Trial Speed = 31 kts

Complement:
   97 - 127

Cost:
   £0.270 million / $1.079 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 33 tons, 2.9 %
   Armour: 22 tons, 1.9 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 20 tons, 1.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 514 tons, 45.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 407 tons, 35.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 138 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 2.1 %
-12t Torpedoes in Tube (12)
-12t Reserve Torpedoes (12)

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     374 lbs / 170 Kg = 7.1 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 12.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.389
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.36 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Stern:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.72 ft / 3.88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 171.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 65.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,828 Square feet or 727 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 66 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 156 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.89
      - Overall: 0.53
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Sachmle]

I wouldn't mess w/ mount and hoist for 5" guns, at least not singles. Go w/ straight deck mount and drop the "other" armor..no DD had closed mounts yet AFAIK. Should get you some weight for more range/speed/etc..