Logi's Design Studies

[Tanthalas]

Its twin hoists so its really four gun emplacements of MGs and 75mm guns. That makes four corners? Its not a whole lot of coverage, the only other collier I have has 4 guns and is half its size so...

Its NOT a tender :-\ Its a oil tanker/collier. It does not hold accommodations for other warships or repair/refurbish other warships. It strictly carries fuel for the navy.

Oilers (AO) Coalier (No clue) Combat Stores Ship (no clue) These all fall under the broad heading of Tenders (atleast they do now dont know if they always did or not) and Personaly I would think more than one mount on any Tender would proly be over kill.  Personaly I wouldnt want my tenders going into combat at all, I usualy just slap one mount on them aft and call it good.

[Logi]

A tender is an auxiliary which can supply all the amenities of a port, to some degree.  It generally carries accommodation space and amenities for crews of small vessels, workshops, warehouses, stores, and fuel.  Up to half of the weight of these facilties may be simmed as extra fuel bunkerage; the remainder may only be simmed as miscellaneous weight.  Regardless, it all counts as functional miscelleneous weight for the purposes of costing.

This is the description of a Tender in the rules. Tenders can NOT be build to mercantile standards, hence the need for that distinction.

Personally its not as if the four guns will make much more of a difference to the purpose of the ship, but it doesn't hurt, and I'm too lazy to go change it now. Its only a difference of a few tons. I don't want it going into combat at all either, but sometimes things don't work the way you want them to.

--------------

I revised the destroyer I designed a page ago.

Biao Zhun She Ji 001, RRC Destroyer laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 788 t standard; 882 t normal; 958 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   307.82 ft / 300.00 ft x 27.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   93.82 m / 91.44 m x 8.23 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
      5 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1917 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 177 lbs / 80 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.50" / 13 mm      0.50" / 13 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15,638 shp / 11,666 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 170 tons

   Trial Speed = 30.12 kts

Complement:
   80 - 105

Cost:
   £0.182 million / $0.728 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 22 tons, 2.5 %
   Armour: 11 tons, 1.2 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 11 tons, 1.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 395 tons, 44.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 261 tons, 29.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 132 tons, 14.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 62 tons, 7.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     224 lbs / 102 Kg = 6.3 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 12.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.381
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.72 ft / 0.83 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Mid (50 %):      11.00 ft / 3.35 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9.50 ft / 2.90 m
      - Stern:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.89 ft / 3.32 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 171.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 60.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,941 Square feet or 459 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 62 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 136 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.29
      - Overall: 0.54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[TexanCowboy]

That's mercantile alright. A floating bomb too.  :D
As for the destroyer, do you only have 750 ton tech?   

[maddox]

This kind of ship is your main worry.

Using local fuel. The RRC needs to import oil.
Using torpedo's way big enough to hurt anything floating (except Masque), Your 21" Monsters won't do more that an 17,7" one on these ships. Destroy it.
And the few guns it carry can play a number on anything unarmored.  The bigger guns of the RRC DD could be well to big, and just punch holes trough the light ships.
Can be build 1 per 6 months, in a type 0 dock, yours take 7 months in a type 1 dock.

Every HY 13 of these enter service, and that's because the MK doesn't even care to build more.

[Logi]

@Texan
Should I not carry any fuel on it at all? Its called a tanker for a reason. I don't intend for the ship to be in combat anyways.

@Maddox
How does this look then?

Jur-Zi (Bird), Republic Destroyer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   500 t light; 515 t standard; 570 t normal; 614 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229.66 ft / 220.00 ft x 22.00 ft x 9.00 ft (normal load)
   70.00 m / 67.06 m x 6.71 m  x 2.74 m

Armament:
     3 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount
     2 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 40 lbs / 18 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15,190 shp / 11,332 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 99 tons


   Trial Speed = 30.5 kts

Complement:
   57 - 75

Cost:
   £0.126 million / $0.506 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 5 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 297 tons, 52.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 184 tons, 32.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 70 tons, 12.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 2.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     164 lbs / 74 Kg = 12.7 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
   Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 12.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.17
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.458
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 73 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.95 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Stern:      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.31 ft / 3.75 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 17.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,108 Square feet or 289 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 48 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 23 lbs/sq ft or 113 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 4.96
      - Overall: 0.63
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor

Misc Weight: 12t
6t Torpedoes in Tube
6t Reserve Torpedoes

[TexanCowboy]

Logi, I put the  :D there for a reason.

[The Rock Doctor]

Gotta be honest - RRC has to consider fighting blue water navies with larger destroyers as well as the MK swarms, while lacking the industry to match construction of either threat.  If the slips and docks are there, I'd go with the 750 t boats.  They're closer in capability to "European" boats, and ton-for-ton superior to MK boats.

If you knock down the misc. weight on the 750 t boat, can you get another knot out of her?

[Logi]

Haha, I thought F/C was 50t so I made the misc that way. The misc weight isn't enough to cover the knot if I still want the F/C. The prices for that knot are steep.

Biao Zhun She Ji 001, RRC Destroyer laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 787 t standard; 858 t normal; 915 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   308.18 ft / 300.00 ft x 27.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   93.93 m / 91.44 m x 8.23 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
      5 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1917 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 177 lbs / 80 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.70" / 18 mm         -         0.50" / 13 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17,586 shp / 13,119 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 127 tons

   Trial Speed = 31.18 kts

Complement:
   79 - 103

Cost:
   £0.185 million / $0.739 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 22 tons, 2.6 %
   Armour: 8 tons, 0.9 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 8 tons, 0.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 405 tons, 47.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 278 tons, 32.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 108 tons, 12.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 37 tons, 4.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     221 lbs / 100 Kg = 6.2 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 12.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.371
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.72 ft / 0.83 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Mid (50 %):      12.00 ft / 3.66 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9.50 ft / 2.90 m
      - Stern:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.39 ft / 3.47 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,924 Square feet or 457 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 56 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 140 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.58
      - Overall: 0.56
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Sachmle]

Fear the wrath of Mod-inflicted wounds on your ship there Logi. The BC is only 0.378 and the limit is 0.380.

[Logi]

Ah forgot about that...

Biao Zhun She Ji 001, RRC Destroyer laid down 1917 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 788 t standard; 882 t normal; 958 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   307.82 ft / 300.00 ft x 27.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   93.82 m / 91.44 m x 8.23 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
      5 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1917 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1917 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 177 lbs / 80 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18,012 shp / 13,437 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 170 tons

   Trial Speed = 31.19 kts

Complement:
   80 - 105

Cost:
   £0.188 million / $0.753 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 22 tons, 2.5 %
   Armour: 6 tons, 0.6 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 6 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 419 tons, 47.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 266 tons, 30.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 132 tons, 14.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 37 tons, 4.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     218 lbs / 99 Kg = 6.2 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 12.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.95

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.381
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.72 ft / 0.83 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Mid (50 %):      11.00 ft / 3.35 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9.50 ft / 2.90 m
      - Stern:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.89 ft / 3.32 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 177.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 60.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,941 Square feet or 459 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 56 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 139 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.34
      - Overall: 0.55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Jefgte]

Powerfull armament & just a correct speed

Good DD for 750t


;)

[Logi]

What do you think of this design; a very long TBD Leader.

Has two 75mm guns arranged with one super-firing in the front. Then aft of the bridge, there is a series of torpedo tubes and smoke stacks. The typical spacing is ~5 ft of space between smoke stack and tube. This comes out as a total of 6 triple torpedo tubes. The last of the six tubes is aft of the aft. bridge. The length of each tube is 25 ft (as I designed them on drawing) which is already overestimating still the blueprints of similar sized torpedoes I've looked at come out to ~22 ft. All the torpedoes are placed centerline.

Biao Zhun She Ji 002, RRC TorpedoBoat Destroyer laid down 1918 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   1,000 t light; 1,026 t standard; 1,138 t normal; 1,228 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   385.36 ft / 375.00 ft x 34.10 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
   117.46 m / 114.30 m x 10.39 m  x 2.44 m

Armament:
      2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount
      4 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1918 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 28 lbs / 13 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   18 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:

   - Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 21,873 shp / 16,317 Kw = 31.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 201 tons

   Trial Speed = 32 kts

Complement:
   97 - 127

Cost:
   £0.243 million / $0.972 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 tons, 0.3 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0.2 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 597 tons, 52.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 354 tons, 31.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 138 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 43 tons, 3.8 %
- 18 21" (1t) Torpedoes
- 25t Long-Range Wireless

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     385 lbs / 175 Kg = 29.9 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
   Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 11.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.389
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.36 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.72 ft / 0.83 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Stern:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   13.22 ft / 4.03 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 175.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 5.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,828 Square feet or 727 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 67 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 132 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.02
      - Overall: 0.53
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor

[Sachmle]

1908 Cutting Edge (+3): triple TTs - max 12, displacement 1000t

[Logi]

@($^$
I just wasted my time :-\

Will get a 12 torpedo tube design up pronto, probably be reduced to 500~750 tons.

[TexanCowboy]

I don't like it. It has too many torpedoes, and minisule amounts of guns. The type 14 Ukrainian design has the same weight, 3 more guns, and only 10 torpedo tubes.