Logi's Design Studies

[maddox]

Things planes can do in 1915:
-Lift off, look around for a while, return, land and the crew giving the observed info vocaly or has to write it out first.  A slightly faster  way to get the info back is by dropping a written message. If it is found of course.

-Lift off, and shoot at others with machine guns of not to large caliber. 8mm is big already.

-Lift off and drop a few improvised bombs on the enemy, aiming with improvised aiming devices. Even the biggest bombs of the era are 100-150 lbs HE or shrapnell. That will impress ships build to withstand a lot more punishment. 
Maybe early attempts with the smallest torpedo's available. And a 14" torpedo can hurt a ship badly. But getting it to hit the ships is another matter. Or even starting it when submerging and getting it a set depth , or avoiding it exploding when hitting the water...

[Logi]

@Tan
I know and I believe it

@maddox
-my fighters use 10mm
-scouting makes sense

-torpedo problems :(
-150 HE/shrapnel can be used for harbour bombardment right?

[maddox]

@Tan
I know and I believe it

@maddox
-my fighters use 10mm
-scouting makes sense

Same difference. It took a lot more sturdier aircraft to carry the .50 BMGs or even heavier guns.
Scouting was the first use of aircraft in warfare.

-torpedo problems :(

Even in WW II torpedo's did prove to be fickle beasts, especialy when not developed and tested to the bone (ask any WW II US submariner, they could strangle the torpedo builders, with their own intestines.)

-150lbs HE/shrapnel can be used for harbour bombardment right?

Of course. The first succesfull attempt of an aircraft bombardment was on a juicy target with a high flamable index.

[Logi]

Redone design, can carry 66 airplanes of a theorical 95. The main battery layout is akin to that on the HMS Nelson. It is expected that the structure will not act as a mast because of the aft flight deck.

66 Airplanes: bombers with either shraphel or HE bombs.
Airplane Mission: Bombardment (of a land base)

Gao Tian, RRC Battlecarrier laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   30,349 t light; 31,757 t standard; 34,237 t normal; 36,221 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
   219.76 m / 219.76 m x 30.48 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
      9 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (2 mounts), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 3 raised guns - superfiring
      8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 12,852 lbs / 5,830 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   360.00 ft / 109.73 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   341.00 ft / 103.94 m   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   360.00 ft / 109.73 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm
          One Lightweight Hangar

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 78,715 shp / 58,721 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,464 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1,258 - 1,636

Cost:
   £3.906 million / $15.626 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,357 tons, 4.0 %
   Armour: 8,767 tons, 25.6 %
      - Belts: 4,163 tons, 12.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,574 tons, 4.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,803 tons, 8.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 227 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 3,452 tons, 10.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,016 tons, 35.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,889 tons, 11.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 4,756 tons, 13.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     38,781 lbs / 17,591 Kg = 35.3 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 3.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 16.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.554
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.21 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 50,507 Square feet or 4,692 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 179 lbs/sq ft or 874 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.01
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Walter]

9 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (2 mounts), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 3 raised guns - superfiring

I doubt you have the proper tech for that sextuple turret. :D

[Logi]

Battlecruiser Design Concept
-uses 1916 engines

Kowloon CB-01, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   27,415 t light; 28,635 t standard; 32,688 t normal; 35,930 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
   219.76 m / 219.76 m x 27.43 m  x 8.23 m

Armament:
      6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,646.40lbs / 746.79kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 10,134 lbs / 4,597 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   410.00 ft / 124.97 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   291.00 ft / 88.70 m   27.00 ft / 8.23 m
     20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   410.00 ft / 124.97 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 157,819 shp / 117,733 Kw = 31.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 20.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7,295 tons

Complement:
   1,215 - 1,580

Cost:
   £4.376 million / $17.502 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,061 tons, 3.2 %
   Armour: 8,323 tons, 25.5 %
      - Belts: 4,762 tons, 14.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,496 tons, 4.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,844 tons, 5.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 220 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 5,880 tons, 18.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,851 tons, 36.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,273 tons, 16.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     43,491 lbs / 19,727 Kg = 31.7 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
   Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 15.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.653
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.01 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31.00 ft / 9.45 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   27.00 ft / 8.23 m
      - Mid (50 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Stern:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   24.65 ft / 7.51 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 188.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 49,846 Square feet or 4,631 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 113 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 165 lbs/sq ft or 806 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.28
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[P3D]

- too few main guns
- not enough secondaries
- too high SHP - I doubt when updated the rules would allow 38000SHP/shaft
- too high bunkerage

[Logi]

- too few main guns

It was either the twin 14" or the triple 13". I'll switch to the triple 13".

- not enough secondaries

Will do

- too high SHP - I doubt when updated the rules would allow 38000SHP/shaft

I thought the SHP/shaft limit for the 1916 engines was 40k

- too high bunkerage

I assumed the ship was going to run at high speeds for patrolling, hence the 20kts cruise speed. Considering the high speed of the ship, the bunkerage would be burned pretty quickly at top speed.

It's about 2310nm at 31kts. Bunkerage reduced to 1685nm at 29kts.

Edited Version
-triple 13"

Kowloon CB-01, RRC Battlecruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   27,144 t light; 28,470 t standard; 31,537 t normal; 33,990 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.00 ft / 721.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
   219.76 m / 219.76 m x 27.43 m  x 8.23 m

Armament:
      9 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,320.00lbs / 598.74kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 12,392 lbs / 5,621 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   370.00 ft / 112.78 m   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   351.00 ft / 106.98 m   27.00 ft / 8.23 m
   Upper:   7.00" / 178 mm   370.00 ft / 112.78 m   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
     Main Belt covers 79 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      9.00" / 229 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 116,916 shp / 87,219 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 18.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,520 tons

Complement:
   1,183 - 1,538

Cost:
   £4.339 million / $17.357 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,300 tons, 4.1 %
   Armour: 9,011 tons, 28.6 %
      - Belts: 5,149 tons, 16.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,842 tons, 5.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,806 tons, 5.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 215 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 4,356 tons, 13.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,177 tons, 38.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,393 tons, 13.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     44,018 lbs / 19,966 Kg = 40.1 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.630
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.01 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.85 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Mid (50 %):      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Stern:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.60 ft / 6.89 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 48,802 Square feet or 4,534 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 857 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.19
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[P3D]

35K according to

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3285.14

Now it needs only a little update in the rules section.

[Logi]

With each and every passing designs, the ships got larger and larger in tonnage. A group of designers sought to revert this change and produced this light cruiser concept design.

Xia LouFuor, RRC Light Cruiser laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   11,952 t light; 12,524 t standard; 14,132 t normal; 15,417 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   520.00 ft / 520.00 ft x 70.30 ft x 22.00 ft (normal load)
   158.50 m / 158.50 m x 21.43 m  x 6.71 m

Armament:
      6 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x3 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      18 - 0.93" / 23.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.40lbs / 0.18kg shells, 1915 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 5,000 lbs / 2,268 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   8 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   301.00 ft / 91.74 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   2.00" / 51 mm   219.00 ft / 66.75 m   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   301.00 ft / 91.74 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 44,763 shp / 33,393 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,893 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   647 - 842

Cost:
   £1.772 million / $7.088 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 625 tons, 4.4 %
   Armour: 3,920 tons, 27.7 %
      - Belts: 2,037 tons, 14.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 779 tons, 5.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,003 tons, 7.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 101 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 1,963 tons, 13.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,144 tons, 36.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,179 tons, 15.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17,546 lbs / 7,959 Kg = 26.4 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.615
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.40 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.80 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,113 Square feet or 2,519 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 626 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.65
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[maddox]

Graff Spee.....  A Pocket battleship.

I like her in her own right.

[Guinness]

I think she's got the same problem the German Pocket BBs had: she's not fast enough to control the range, and not armored enough against heavier cruiser main armament. Add to that the problems of FC in the period we're in, and she may be a poor bargain. At least, that's the official opinion on such ships from the Confederate Admiralty.

One thing is for sure though: a ship such as this could terrorize the sea lanes, and tie up a disproportionate enemy force, so she likely has value. At least if you are willing to risk her getting cornered by smaller cruisers as at Montevideo.

[maddox]

As I say, a pocket BB.   

[Borys]

Maybe 4x2x10"?
Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

Do 1916 engines make a substantial difference in the results?