Reformist Chinese AC-1913

[Logi]

Huang Hun, Chinese Armoured Cruiser laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   11,470 t light; 12,056 t standard; 13,200 t normal; 14,115 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   574.24 ft / 560.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 21.00 ft (normal load)
   175.03 m / 170.69 m x 21.34 m  x 6.40 m

Armament:
      8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (4x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5,709 lbs / 2,589 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   379.00 ft / 115.52 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   379.00 ft / 115.52 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,326 shp / 35,305 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 5,208nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,059 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   615 - 800

Cost:
   £1.450 million / $5.799 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 714 tons, 5.4 %
   Armour: 2,772 tons, 21.0 %
      - Belts: 1,379 tons, 10.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 809 tons, 6.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 511 tons, 3.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 72 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,343 tons, 17.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,341 tons, 40.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,730 tons, 13.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,535 lbs / 6,593 Kg = 21.8 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.87
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low forecastle, low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.561
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m (19.00 ft / 5.79 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m (19.00 ft / 5.79 m before break)
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.04 ft / 5.50 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,647 Square feet or 2,568 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 650 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.37
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

In response to Imperial China's AC...

Note: Picture is not drawn to exact scale, some parts are exagerated; the 4" gun was drawn small (far to small).

[P3D]

You have superfiring turrets, two of them.
The deck is flush, there should not be that increase amidship in freeboard.
Stem should be higher too.
Shorten the ship to 557' overall length to fit in a lvl 2 drydock. The ship is not fast enough that it would matter much.
Main belt  height: You have 16' freeboard. One deck height is around 8'. So your main belt should go from the second deck (8' above WL) to 4-6' below - 12-14' depth not 8'.
Have 1.5-2" armored deck, 1" would keep out only 6" shells.

I'd say add a knot of speed but noticed you are at the SHP limit already.
These weight addition would prolly force you to drop to 6 guns if you want to keep the speed.

[Tanthalas]

I'd say add a knot of speed but noticed you are at the SHP limit already.
These weight addition would prolly force you to drop to 6 guns if you want to keep the speed.

uhm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,326 shp / 35,305 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 5,208nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,059 tons (90% coal)

wouldnt that be like 11.5k per shaft? I thought the limit went 5k and then 20k

[P3D]

5k, 12K and 20K.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Main belt  height: You have 16' freeboard. One deck height is around 8'. So your main belt should go from the second deck (8' above WL) to 4-6' below - 12-14' depth not 8'.

That's one thing I've wondered about in the past. Decks going down from freeboard, figure design freeboard at increments of 8 from WL,  or expect them to commence a couple feet above the keel (bilges)- and then how much.

[Tanthalas]

Main belt  height: You have 16' freeboard. One deck height is around 8'. So your main belt should go from the second deck (8' above WL) to 4-6' below - 12-14' depth not 8'.

That's one thing I've wondered about in the past. Decks going down from freeboard, figure design freeboard at increments of 8 from WL,  or expect them to commence a couple feet above the keel (bilges)- and then how much.

Engenearing and Berthing spaces are wierd, I had a Guided tour of the USS Kity Hawk (my Cousin was serving on her), and well her Main Spaces wern't 8' they started at the bildges and were 20+ feet high (divided into 2 decks and 3 in places)

[P3D]

"Main belt  height: You have 16' freeboard. One deck height is around 8'. So your main belt should go from the second deck (8' above WL) to 4-6' below - 12-14' depth not 8'."

That's one thing I've wondered about in the past. Decks going down from freeboard, figure design freeboard at increments of 8 from WL,  or expect them to commence a couple feet above the keel (bilges)- and then how much.

A useful guideline is how much the draught changes by displacement. Assume waterplane area is independent of draught. Assume the density of seawater is 1t/m3.
In the case of this sihp, waterplane area is 2568 m2. Draught at Normal displacement is 6.4m. At full displacement, ship is 915t heavier. 915/2568~0.27m larger draught. At standard displacement (out of fuel) 2144t lighter so ~0.9m shallower draught.
In essence, the draught can change in a range of 4', and waves were not yet taken into account.

[Logi]

Huang Hun, Chinese Armoured Cruiser laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   12,193 t light; 12,795 t standard; 14,000 t normal; 14,964 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   556.81 ft / 542.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
   169.72 m / 165.20 m x 21.34 m  x 7.32 m

Armament:
      8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (4x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5,708 lbs / 2,589 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   379.00 ft / 115.52 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   379.00 ft / 115.52 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.00" / 127 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      5.00" / 127 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 49,169 shp / 36,680 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 5,370nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,169 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   643 - 836

Cost:
   £1.491 million / $5.965 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 714 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 3,565 tons, 25.5 %
      - Belts: 2,076 tons, 14.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 688 tons, 4.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 727 tons, 5.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 75 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,434 tons, 17.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,180 tons, 37.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,807 tons, 12.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13,773 lbs / 6,247 Kg = 20.7 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.01
   Metacentric height 3.0 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 17.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.90
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.538
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.74 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.93 ft / 5.16 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,185 Square feet or 2,433 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 651 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.48
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Too busy to redraw the ship :P

[The Rock Doctor]

Truth be told, I'd consider reducing the powerplant to ~24 kts and raising the freeboard by up to a metre.  While it may result in a less impressive ship in the short term, in the longer term you'll be able to replace the 1909 machinery with something more modern and powerful, while retaining seaworthiness.

[Logi]

Huang Hun, Chinese Armoured Cruiser laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   12,228 t light; 12,831 t standard; 14,000 t normal; 14,935 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   558.55 ft / 542.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
   170.25 m / 165.20 m x 21.34 m  x 7.32 m

Armament:
      8 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (4x2 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5,709 lbs / 2,589 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   379.00 ft / 115.52 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   5.00" / 127 mm   379.00 ft / 115.52 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.00" / 127 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      5.00" / 127 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 35,918 shp / 26,795 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 5,202nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,105 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   643 - 836

Cost:
   £1.392 million / $5.569 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 714 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 4,006 tons, 28.6 %
      - Belts: 2,203 tons, 15.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 759 tons, 5.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 969 tons, 6.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 75 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 1,778 tons, 12.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,430 tons, 38.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,772 tons, 12.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18,276 lbs / 8,290 Kg = 27.5 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 15.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.98
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.55

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.538
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.74 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,185 Square feet or 2,433 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 657 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.83
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Something akin to this?  ;)

[The Rock Doctor]

Indeed.  Now, for giggles, change the engine year to 1916 and see what speed you can generate for the same (or less) machinery weight.

[Korpen]

Took a look at your tech, it seems you do not possess the "all centreline" –tech required for that main battery armament yet.

That said I do not agree with Rocky, I think it is better to try and design the most capable ship possible now, as that reduce the need for a expensive rebuild just a few years down the line.
If building a ship that you pretty much HAVE to rebuild in 3-4 years is quite bad economy, and I think that it is better to build something else until you can build the thing you want directly.

I would recomend looking at something like the Ottoman Yavuz Sultan Selim ( http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=794.msg25010#msg25010 ), by going for 10% oil and reducing the belt thickness to 21cm she can be reduced to 13 400 ton, barley 100 ton more then the present design, and much better protected.
Also, it can be build with your current tech. :)

[The Rock Doctor]

I think I'd argue that the revision is the better design - on account of much-improved stability and seakeeping, and the thicker deck armor - but it depends on what the Reformist place priority on.

The current Chinese tech does allow superfiring turrets, but with the sighting hood problem that prohibits them from shooting close to the ship's axis.

That said - you're quite right about Yavuz as an example of a good ship on the cheap.

[Logi]

Indeed.  Now, for giggles, change the engine year to 1916 and see what speed you can generate for the same (or less) machinery weight.

:o Madness....