Worse than Madness?

[mentat]

Hi Again

Overall - given coastlines are very difficult to defend 24/7 - I think there is a lot to be said for the key message involved here - hit and run attacks on the enemy coastline as an aggtressive and proactive strategy to seize the intiative, set the agenda and cause the opponent a great deal of trouble.

Potentially creating an impact psychologically and politically - out of all proportion to the actual physical/economic harm inflicted, as well as shifting key resources from where they are critically needed.

As to the specifics of the Fast Attack Squadron concept - I tried to set it in a particular (and hopefully realistic) political and naval context - like any weapon it needs to be applied correctly to tackle a particular situation.

Change the situation - and you need to change/develop the weapon or the tactics.

On your particular points:

Protection of Main Naval Bases:

- in the scenario I pictured Country B was caught initially complacent and unprepared in its Coastal Defences ( lots of resources/infrastructure but poor readiness and training) by an opponent suddenly escalating from a minor trade dispute in overseas regions to a full scale 'hot war'

No doubt this/or similar happened in real life but it may not fit a wargaming board so well where everyone is much more geared up for potential conflict !!

But, no matter - to initiate the process of goading/humiliating/de-stabilising it shouldn't be necessary to start with such a sharp bee sting - there are lots of alternative soft targets:

Coastal Shipping can be raided

Minor Ports can be bombarded

Minelayers setting out additional defensive fields can be intercepted

Minefields can be layed in key shipping lanes

- all of these can be done repeatedly, at will or not whenever it suits - preferably as unpredictably as possible - keep them guessing

(Intelligence gathering by Sub would be an important part of this - tracking ship movements, observing coastal targets etc)

NB - one of the key objectives is to draw back key resources (such as the BCs  you mention) away from the true theatre of operations - in this particular case a Trade War 3000 miles away

If FAS achieves this - they have achieved one of their 2 primary objectives.

If anyone is inclined to indulge in WW1 Kaiser Bill HSF tactics - you can even bombard Civilians in Seaside Resorts or Fishing Ports - guaranteed to get outraged letters to the Times and in the C21 - indictments to a War Crimes Tribunal at the Hague

Whatever the approach - the point is Coastlines (esp Long ones) are highly vulnerable yet the Public, Politicians etc expect them to be protected - (in their view) what else is a Navy for?!

Furthermore if you raid with powerful fast Light Forces you can destroy local light Coastal forces on night patrol and firstly evade more powerful defences as they are developed, then as they get frustrated - lure them out to your BIG stuff to face defeat or perhaps by now even worse - more failure by running away

Potentially a very harmful strategy - both psychologically and politically


On the specifics:

Coastal Batteries - against the Minor Ports with Local 6" Batteries - the 3 FAS Gunships (2 x 11" guns each) have a clear range advantage - and if they want to close the range for part of the bombardment thereby coming in range for retaliation - 1 of the 3 can target the Battery with 11" HE or Shrapnel - I think the gun crews would be very brave if not foolhardy not to retreat to their slit trenches when this happens

Locating Batteries by prior submarine based observation would be a routine part of the process - e.g. WW1 HSF did this prior to their North Sea Raids


Re - running into BC level/other Fast Heavy opposition

I think I raised the main points on this in a post yeterday, specifically:

1. Against ships of the same generation lightly armoured ships should have a 2-3 knot advantage - certainly against any reasonably balanced (armoured) BC design that is useful in general combat elsewhere

2. Additionally - against a big juicy target such as a BC + consorts (just the type of ship(s) they were intended to divert from more critical areas of operation) as well as running away they have several aggressive options:

  - as they retreat fire torps from stern tubes - hope to delay pursuers/get lucky

   - split formation, fold back and attack from different wings - Gunships distract at long range on one side then TT Attack ships close from opposite side and attack with 30+ torps

   - best of all - draw the pursuing BC/Heavy force onto a waiting line of Subs and/or Larger Heavy Force (BCs (with Torp Crsrs and DDs in the van) and Fast BBs) at a pre-arranged rendezvous 

[Desertfox]

Interesting discussion. As Rocky has pointed out, I (and my enemies) have tried several of these tactics before with varying degrees of success. Take a look at the Battle Reports, especially those from the Second Pacific War.

I actually like your suggestions and would try them out. Unfortunately my country (New Zion) simply does not have the resources to build any one of those ships. Unlike others here I am a risk taker, take big gambles, like fast attacks, and even faster ships, and I have yet to be decisively defeated in a battle where my commanders actually follow orders.

[Korpen]

Change the situation - and you need to change/develop the weapon or the tactics.

On your particular points:

Protection of Main Naval Bases:

- in the scenario I pictured Country B was caught initially complacent and unprepared in its Coastal Defences ( lots of resources/infrastructure but poor readiness and training) by an opponent suddenly escalating from a minor trade dispute in overseas regions to a full scale 'hot war'

No doubt this/or similar happened in real life but it may not fit a wargaming board so well where everyone is much more geared up for potential conflict !!

But, no matter - to initiate the process of goading/humiliating/de-stabilising it shouldn't be necessary to start with such a sharp bee sting - there are lots of alternative soft targets:

Coastal Shipping can be raided

Minor Ports can be bombarded

Minelayers setting out additional defensive fields can be intercepted

Minefields can be layed in key shipping lanes

- all of these can be done repeatedly, at will or not whenever it suits - preferably as unpredictably as possible - keep them guessing

Much of the destabilising effect will come to nothing as FAS ships get destroyed, and that they will. Any operations close to an enemy coast is very dangerous due to mines, torpedoboots, submarines and coast artillery as well as natural dangers such as shoals, rocks and sandbanks.

NB - one of the key objectives is to draw back key resources (such as the BCs  you mention) away from the true theatre of operations - in this particular case a Trade War 3000 miles away

If FAS achieves this - they have achieved one of their 2 primary objectives.

A problem with that is that to get the kind of performance out of the FAS ship you outline, they got to be fairly large, between 5000 and 8000 ton at least I would say. This means that deploying a BC (about 20kton) with some support is an about equal commitment of resources as the FAS group.

Furthermore if you raid with powerful fast Light Forces you can destroy local light Coastal forces on night patrol and firstly evade more powerful defences as they are developed, then as they get frustrated - lure them out to your BIG stuff to face defeat or perhaps by now even worse - more failure by running away

Night fighting is really a toss up, it is down to whom spot who first, if the small, low torpedo boat spots the large cruisers first they got good odds for a successful attack or to evade as needed. 

Coastal Batteries - against the Minor Ports with Local 6" Batteries - the 3 FAS Gunships (2 x 11" guns each) have a clear range advantage - and if they want to close the range for part of the bombardment thereby coming in range for retaliation - 1 of the 3 can target the Battery with 11" HE or Shrapnel - I think the gun crews would be very brave if not foolhardy not to retreat to their slit trenches when this happens

The gun crews are behind a thick gunshield, standing behind a breastwork, and being a very, very small target, they would not have any reason to go and hind in the concrete shelters below the guns.
You mentioned the HSF raids on the British cost; remember that at Hartlepool the British 15cm guns duelled with German BCs at less then 4km, and were never hit.

Re - running into BC level/other Fast Heavy opposition

I think I raised the main points on this in a post yeterday, specifically:

1. Against ships of the same generation lightly armoured ships should have a 2-3 knot advantage - certainly against any reasonably balanced (armoured) BC design that is useful in general combat elsewhere

Might not be enogh, if you need to go around it to get home.

2. Additionally - against a big juicy target such as a BC + consorts (just the type of ship(s) they were intended to divert from more critical areas of operation) as well as running away they have several aggressive options:

  - as they retreat fire torps from stern tubes - hope to delay pursuers/get lucky

Can be done, if turning tail is an option.

- split formation, fold back and attack from different wings - Gunships distract at long range on one side then TT Attack ships close from opposite side and attack with 30+ torps

I think you need either a damm incompetent opponent or allot larger speed advantage to pull of that manoeuvre. The most likely outcome is that the BC open the range to the gunship and maintain it with the toped cruisers while blasting them apart at 10km (3-5x effective torpedo range). When they are gone focusing on the gun ships if they have not run away.   

   - best of all - draw the pursuing BC/Heavy force onto a waiting line of Subs and/or Larger Heavy Force (BCs (with Torp Crsrs and DDs in the van) and Fast BBs) at a pre-arranged rendezvous

Can be done, but it is their home ground, so the opposite is just as likley (if not more).

[mentat]

Hi Desert Fox

Thanks for response - I'll check out the 2nd Pacific WAr - sounds interesting.

Was there a lot of Coastal Attack hit and run - or was it more general use of fast light forces?

Pity you don't have more resources to play with - but could be interesting to sim some alternative designs anyway.

Unfortunately as speeds of fast heavy units - BCs, ACs rise - they do need to get faster and larger - c.8 k tons for 32 knots I imagine??

Overall I think the Coastal Attack is best used to destabilise a similar sized opponent in the opening phase of a bigger conflict - less scope for smaller countries

And there a lot of issues to assess in using capable but vulnerable assets in aggressive strategies

Chat more later?