Worse than Madness?

[Guinness]

The 11 inch guns will outrange all the torpedoes, but not likely be able to hit anything at that range. If these ships ever got close enough to something big enough that they'd really need those guns to hit it, they'd likely already be damaged or sunk by that opponent which would have equivalent armament *and* adequate fire control to actually hit something.

And then there's the question of what all these lightly protected torpedo-centric ships would do after they've let loose their torpedoes. Even if the plan is to reload, they're going to be pretty vulnerable during that process.

At least that's my take.

Now I agree that ships such as these could make fearsome coastal raiders or fast minelayers, which I'd prefer to avoid, since they'd be most likely to ply their trade near my coasts. :)

[mentat]

Hi Guys

Good to get discussion going

Fast Attack Squadron - Littoral Combat Operations:

Multi-layer defence - any attacking force has to get through 3 layers

Outer layer - 3 x 2 11 inch - yes more of a deterrent - but a nasty one

Then 6 7.5 inch - with full FC

Then all the 5.5s

Also requires co-ordination of targetting in the squadron - hence command ship role

Some scope to use colour dye - 3 forward ships Mdm guns use red, blue, yellow and 11 inchers could either continue on target (bigger splash) or focus on more distant targets once Mdm guns join in

Since they work permanently as a Squadron - lots of opportunity for operational training

The 6 11 inch primary role would be land attack - with ship defence as secondary - so yes, need to work in squadron. Presumaby they would also have some chance of hitting moving ship targets? - and could use shrapnel to make near misses count

- put it this way would you like to command attacking DD or CL?

The TT Attack ships (rather than the 11inch) would primarily take on/deter any heavy Coastal CDBBs/PBS etc - and avoid CLs where poss - they have 6 5.5s vs DDS

[Guinness]

The torpedo oriented ship could make a handy flotilla leader, but it's role would be purely offensive -- leading the torpedo boats in for the attack, and not the traditional one of support, where the light cruiser provides covering fire for the retiring torpedo boats. As such it's best thought of as an ultra-torpedo boat I suppose, but I suspect there would be more utility in a bunch of regular sized torpedo craft instead of one large one.

The 6x7.5" ship I see having the most value though, but not in this role. Instead I'd see it in the more traditional cruiser roles.

The problem I see is you are asking small underprotected ships to go toe to toe with superior forces. It's an aggressive tactic, and could well succeed under optimal conditions, but what if their foe is a well organized BC or BB squadron with good fire control? What if the screening destroyers offer little resistance on the way in, but essentially close the loop behind them?

Now for night or low visibility, or in weather where these ships' size proves an advantage against lighter forces, possibly the odds would equalize. I don't know. It would be an interesting war gaming experience.

All that said, I still don't see the value of the small number of 11 inch guns. It seems better to me to bring the maximum number of torpedo armed ships to the party.

[mentat]

Hi Guinness

Yes - usual rule applies - use a weapon for what it's good for not what it isn't designed for

The Squadron is for Long Range hit and run to attack Key Coastal Targets (too far for TBs/DDs)

If opposed - can break up Lt Forces, deter/torpedo Heavier Coastal forces - CDBB/PB etc

They are not optimised for Ocean Fleet warfare and would retire from any Coastal Attack Operation if run into too many CLs or any BC/BB based forces

Key Qn is - depending on a Country's situation or objectives - is it a worthwhile attack capability to have?

[The Rock Doctor]

Mentat:

Thanks for the comments.  It would be interesting to actually have a navy built along these lines, but I'm a bit too conservative to go quite that far.  There are still a few lesser powers out there that could be built up around cruisers, though, if their player were so inclined (hint, hint).

The Madness platform would make for a good cruiser-minelayer, but my own preference is to use torpedo-boat/destroyer hulls as the primary offensive minelayers.  I reckon four to six small minelayers can lay a single field quicker than one large layer, so are less likely to be detected.  If sunk, it's not as big a deal.  

To give away a State Secret, I originally designed WTM as a fast monitor charged with shelling vulnerable, stationary tagets - such as the CSA's naval reserve forces in Florida and California.  So Guinness would have been right to be worried if I had built such things.

[Guinness]

I dunno. Shelling my large number of slow old cruisers might be a blessing...

[mentat]

 A Possible Campaign Scenario:

Early stage of War started on Trade Dispute - Country A launches series of Long Range hit and run attacks on Key Coastal Targets of Country B

Mission 1

Fast Attack Squadron - hits major Commercial/Naval Port Facility at Night

Severe damage to Oil Refinery, Commercial Dock and Naval Repair/Refuelling facilities

Also some bombardment of local Coastal Battery

Only at sea defence forces are 1 Old DD and 2 TBs - they attempt to engage but DD damaged and 1 TB sunk by greater gunfire

FAS withdraws unhurt at high speed

Result - political uproar - Navy B reputation severely tarnished - can't even defend own coasts !!

Also - 3 Fast Minelayers were busy same night - 300+ mines laid in key Coastal shipping lanes

Navy B mobilises all available CD ships + some CLs and DDs from Fleet Ops

Mission 2

FAS goes for smaller but much less obvious target - small commercial/coaling port

Causes severe damage to Local shipping in port and local Coastal Battery - 2 Old DDs and SS  in harbour also sunk

But Navy B now mobilised - high speed retirement runs into CDBB with old CL and 4 TBs

FAS Gunships engage CDBB inconclusively at long range - distract attention - 2 TT FAS ships attack from different direction - CDBB hit by 2 TTs and is gone

TBs chase retiring TTs - but run into FAS Command Ship as well - both hit badly and retire


Meanwhile there have been more Minelaying raids - Total Losses in the 3 weeks are 11 ships - 2 Oil Tankers, 2 Large Cargo Ships, 5 Coastal Traders, 1 DD and a Patrol Ship

Political result - even worse - Navy B tries to defend against second attack fails to stop it and is beaten up itself !!

War Cabinet in trouble - Navy CinC - forced to half Trade Protn Force (ACs, CLs) at Sea to defend Coast

Navy A continues hit and run raids to tie down these forces - and starts winning at Sea in the Major Engagements it starts .....

[The Rock Doctor]

It's a possible scenario, if Country B has markedly inferior naval forces and handles them poorly.

On the flip-side - what's Navy B doing elsewhere while I'm using a large amount of modern shipping to beat up on his slow, old stuff?

[Guinness]

Shelling Cartegena of course.  :P

Never mind that us Gringos are maybe a little lazy, but we're only a little dumb, so we do have light coastal artillery protecting defensive minefields in a lot of places. And lots of coastal torpedo craft (~70 at last count, plus the slower patrol stuff).

But all this talk may make me want to build the torpedo monitor idea I threw out in the Firanji design contest thread a few days ago.  8)

[mentat]

Hi Guys

Not sure Country B has to be much inferior

Let's say bgd is as follows:

Country B was bigger Naval Power but Country A caught up in last 8 years and therefore now more modern fleet

Country B has just switched more resources to regain lead - but has been retiring older ships to save money

Countries are 1200 - 2000 miles apart - conflict has arisen over trade rights in Colonial areas 2500 miles from both

Country B wasn't looking for war right now but A decides now is window of opportunity

Country B thought Coastal Defences were fine - lots of Old ships - Pre Dreads, CDBBs, CLs, DDs, TBDs and some more modern Patrol Boats + Major Ports have 8" Forts and there are small 6" mobile Batteries for smaller Ports

Strategy for Country A is - knock them hard in ways they find very difficult to counter and keep them on the backfoot - cause significant actual damage but overwhelming level of humiliation!! - and see what happens

Country B Navy now is totally pre-occupied with responding to the threat to homeland - which is greater than perceived since actual invasion is not practical

The existence of the Fast Attack Squadron was not known - all 3 categories of Ship are listed (and based) separately as mainstream forces:

Command Ships - as CLs with the Main Fleet

Big Gun Ships - as Coastal Defence Monitors

TT Attack Ships as Flotilla Leaders to Old Coastal TBDs also in Coastal Defence Force

Before the War they have trained together several times - well away from prying eyes - their role and modus operandi as 'Special Forces' is unknown

And following beginning of cold war phase they have had 4 months to work together intensively


And the Campaign continues:

Mission 3

FAS 1 attacks again - comes upon minesweeping detachment returning from tackling the minefields - 2 DDs and 3 Minesweepers sunk, FAS 1 continue onto nearby intended Coastal Target - another Small Port (quite remote from main bases) - inflicts further damage

Only B forces in range to intercept are newly formed Squadron of 5 CLs - 2 Fast (from Fleet), 3 older

They intercept 100 miles from Coast - but only the 2 modern CLs can keep pace as FAS beat hasty retreat

As 2 CLs are drawn apart from their support - FAS splits - GunShips slow down and engade CLs at long range - TTs peel off to starboard, loop back and close to TT range from rear quarter

As they close they are spotted - but CLs react too late - TT Ships have fired 4 torps each from bow tubes then only later turned to fire more from the above deck tubes amidships

The initial TTs catch the CLs still focussed on gunnery before they turn to comb tracks of the (anticipated) second wave - both are hit - 1 sinking quickly the other lingering but easy meat

The 3 Older CLs catch-up - but FAS has done enough and retires


Missions 4 and 5

Are used as feints - FAS 1 probes new Coastal Defence Picket line 150 miles off B coast - then retires

Heavy forces respond - but cannot catch - more frustration !!

Mission 6:

(Enough foreplay - Time to spring the trap!)

FAS 1 break through the Picket line - sinking a Patrol Boat and Trawler - head direct for one of B's  2 Main Naval Bases

Halfway there meet Scouting CLs and TBDs ahead of 2 ACs (8 x 9.4" 26 knots)and 2 older Semi Dread BCs (6 x 12" 24 knots but can only manage 22)

FAS turn and run - TT ships fire stern TTs at long range but no hits

Semi Dread BCs cannot maintain enough speed and fall back


FAS 1 flees south to pre-arranged rendezvous - with BCS1 (2 Large BCs - 10 x 11" 27 knots + 3 Scout CLs + 2 TT Attack Ships (detached from FAS 2) + 8 Large DDs )

Also supported by BB Div 3  (3 Fast BBs - 8 x 13.5 inch 25 knots) - but no game for them tonight.

(These are A's best Ships)

As ACs chase FAS 1 south - BCS1 arrives on their Starboard Beam - led by TT Attack ships and 4 DDs

As they attack - TT Attack ships from FAS1 fall back - ACs are attacked from 2 directions at very high closing speed - 40+ knots, things happen very quickly:

2 TT Attack ships suffer serious gunfire damage and 1 DD is sunk

Both ACs are hit and seriously damaged but not in danger of sinking

They are now closed and attacked by the 2 BCs and the 3 FAS Gunships - their supporting DDS go down bravely - as eventually do the 2 ACs - despatched by further torps from the DDS

Meanwhile well to the East - FAS 2 also breaks through the Picket line - attacks small Port and retires at Speed

The nearest CL force is supported by the older BCs - but only their TBDs are able to get at all close (in open sea they are slower than FAS1) and suffer significant gun damage - losing contact and FAS 2 escape completely unhurt - they keep doing that!


Navy B is now utterly humiliated - Public outraged at repeated failure - change of Govt - Country B agrees very favourable terms to A - with fewer Colonies they can now concentrate on better Coastal Defence

I think that is enough scenario (which is hopefully pretty realistic) - the potential of hitting in unexpected ways is great - esp if tactics are evolved

I think the only solution to being hit by Fast Attack Squadrons operating in this mode is good/superior intelligence, the Picket Line, Heavy Coastal Defences incl Minefields and lots of Fast Heavy/Medium ships - Fast ACs or Prot Cs + Fast modern DDs for effective interception and pursuit - all very expensive !!!

Lt Coastal Forces - TBDs etc - against surprise attacks on a long coastline very difficult to concentrate them sufficiently to overwhelm defences of FAS - also they lack gunpower and in an open sea they lack speed for effective pursuit

[The Rock Doctor]

This sounds like old-school New Swiss thinking.  It might work out well for some navies in that context, and would certainly be frustrating to some opponents.

I'm curious - poke about the Gran Colombian encyclopedia and tell me whether you think an Arquero class AC, an up-engined Saint Thomas class PC, and six S-class torepdo-boats would be more or less effective in these roles...

[Korpen]

Am I the only one who think the most likely outcomes of half the missions is: "runs into a defensive minefield at high speed, lose half of the ships in the squadron"?

[mentat]

 Hi there

Makes New Switzerland sound interesting - but I hope is a big country - the aggressive strategy wouldn't pay for a smaller one

Like your ships - esp Arquero - probably because it reminds me of Hood in profile - but is a more sensible size

Given the speeds of the AC and PC - the FAS at 28.5 knots could be in trouble esp. if caught from behind

FAS ships would need at least a 1-2 knot margin over any 'Heavy' Ships - PC upwards

But given they sacrifice armour that shouldn't be a problem vs Ships of same generation - major downside is moving to 7-8 k tons to get 32+ knots increases the investment in special purpose ships

But 2 more points:

I'm not sure the Large TBs are very relevant - in open sea and in a long chase - they get left behind

And of course - as well as just running the FAS does have several tactics to deploy vs. your more expensive ships:

- fire torps from stern tubes - hope to get lucky/slow you down

- once TBDs are left well behind - Gunships engage at max range to distract - TT Attack ships circle round and go in on death ride - your ACs are a juicy target

- but best is - lead you into BCS1 or Fast BBs - as Mission 6. Most of your ships should be able to disengage in time - but 'those FAS b**tards'  have got away again! - which is a failure to CinC and above

[mentat]

Hi Korpen

Yes I agree increasingly minefields close down the options quite rapidly if coastline is not too long

eg Germany in 1914 closed down its coastal waters in - about 6 months? - but caught early on - Battle of Heligoland Bight I think

Subs would make intelligence gathering trips to assess dvpt of new minefields

The strategy here was based on enemy has quite long coastline - main base is hit at the outset, then attacks shift to smaller targets, then feints and finally to draw defenders onto supporting heavy forces out at sea - seems the best strategy - and need to play it out in a few months

[Korpen]

Hi Korpen

Yes I agree increasingly minefields close down the options quite rapidly if coastline is not too long

eg Germany in 1914 closed down its coastal waters in - about 6 months? - but caught early on - Battle of Heligoland Bight I think

Subs would make intelligence gathering trips to assess dvpt of new minefields

The strategy here was based on enemy has quite long coastline - main base is hit at the outset, then attacks shift to smaller targets, then feints and finally to draw defenders onto supporting heavy forces out at sea - seems the best strategy - and need to play it out in a few months

The main bases are the places that receive protection such as minefields first, to protect against just that kind of raids.  I think you underestimate the ability of costal artillery, a decent rule of thumb is that a single costal gun is likely the overcome a ship with similar gun as main battery. So a single well-sited 15cm costal gun got the advantage over a CL with about 6-8 15cm guns. This due to the much more stable firing platform, and the fact that to take out a well-sited costal gun you really need to hit a target that is like 4m2 large, while the costal gun is shooting at a profile at least 500m2+ large.

I think that if FAS ran into a modern BC it would be dead, as it cannot really hope to hurt the larger ship, and if caught on its way home (most likely time) incapable of trying to run away.