1913 Qing Destroyer

[Eugenius]

Following the Middle Kingdom's former philosophy of torpedo-heavy warships, I've come up with the following design.  The submerged tube is a fixed bow tube, the other six torpedo tubes are arranged in three twins.

My concern is whether I'll be able to fit all of those tubes on this ship.  Any thoughts?

Type A, Chinese  Destroyer laid down 1913 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   747 t light; 772 t standard; 868 t normal; 945 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   295.28 ft / 295.28 ft x 24.61 ft x 8.37 ft (normal load)
   90.00 m / 90.00 m x 7.50 m  x 2.55 m

Armament:
      2 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 44.09lbs / 20.00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns (4 mounts), 0.22lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 90 lbs / 41 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes, 1 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.20" / 5 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 14,266 shp / 10,643 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 2,250nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 174 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   79 - 103

Cost:
   £0.108 million / $0.432 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 13 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 5 tons, 0.6 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 5 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 440 tons, 50.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 273 tons, 31.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 121 tons, 14.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     250 lbs / 113 Kg = 4.7 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
   Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.45 ft / 5.63 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.45 ft / 5.63 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.45 ft / 5.63 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   11.07 ft / 3.38 m
      - Stern:      11.07 ft / 3.38 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.06 ft / 4.89 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,841 Square feet or 450 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 56 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 20 lbs/sq ft or 96 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.39
      - Longitudinal: 4.86
      - Overall: 0.50
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Borys]

As always, I question the usefulness of such guns on a ship this size :)
The bow torpedo tube is quaint - what would be torpedo's speed advantage over the ship at full speed (as one would expect attacks to be made at top speed)?
Not to turbulent to launch?
Three twin TT, two large guns - tight fit.
Larger ship, coal fired, with two big guns and two TT twins
http://www.kuk-kriegsmarine.at/tatraklasse.htm
http://www.kuk-kriegsmarine.at/ersatztriglavklasse.htm
Borys

[Eugenius]

Assuming I drop the bow torpedo tube...what sort of gun armament would be useful, then?  120 mm are a bit large, but I'm looking at destroyers around the rest of the world and I'm concerned about being outgunned in a DD vs. DD engagement, although obviously these destroyers are more about dealing out damage to capital ships.

[Borys]

I'd suggest 4". Something firing a c.50lbs fixed case shell+charge package.
1-2-3 ...
Korpen posts defense of 4.7" guns :D

Borys

[Guinness]

While the CSA will be moving to 4.7" guns for destroyers soon enough...

I think in general, an outfit of 4 4" guns would be more useful than one of 2 4.7" guns. However, in a ship such as this where deck space might be expected to be at a premium, I could see an argument for just two guns of whatever caliber.

[The Rock Doctor]

Note that your hull strength is considerably lower than it should be (0.50 cross-sectional)...

[Korpen]

Three twin TT, two large guns - tight fit.
Larger ship, coal fired, with two big guns and two TT twins
http://www.kuk-kriegsmarine.at/tatraklasse.htm
http://www.kuk-kriegsmarine.at/ersatztriglavklasse.htm
Borys

The fact that the ships you linked to got six 75mm guns MIGHT have something to do with it being tight...
I were IRL ships with as many as seven 10cm guns with about the same amount of deck space.

The submerged tube is a fixed bow tube

Why not put the fixed tube above the water in the bow rather then below? Would give safer launch i think.

[The Rock Doctor]

Further to my comment above - the hull space issue is due to freeboard, which is extremely high for a torpedo boat.

[Eugenius]

I've tried a couple of things, but I can't quite get what I want...can anyone give me a 750t, 28kt, 90% coal - 10% oil-fired destroyer with three twin 20" torpedo tube installations?

[Borys]

I tinkered with somethig I already on my HDD.

GTB laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   727 t light; 758 t standard; 800 t normal; 834 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   278,87 ft / 278,87 ft x 27,00 ft x 8,00 ft (normal load)
   85,00 m / 85,00 m x 8,23 m  x 2,44 m

Armament:
      1 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft
      4 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all forward
TWO FRONT OF BRIDGE, TWO ON SIDES
      2 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 86 lbs / 39 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   6 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes
THERE SHOULD BE SPACE FOR THEM - IF NOT, KICK OUT A PAIR OF 3" GUNS

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16 314 shp / 12 170 Kw = 29,00 kts
   Range 1 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 77 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   74 - 97

Cost:
   £0,094 million / $0,376 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 11 tons, 1,3%
   Machinery: 425 tons, 53,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 274 tons, 34,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 73 tons, 9,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 18 tons, 2,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     280 lbs / 127 Kg = 8,7 x 4,0 " / 102 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,41
   Metacentric height 1,3 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,14
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,33

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,465
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,70 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,00 ft / 6,71 m
      - Forecastle (10%):   20,00 ft / 6,10 m
      - Mid (30%):      12,00 ft / 3,66 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
      - Stern:      12,00 ft / 3,66 m
      - Average freeboard:   13,68 ft / 4,17 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 82,1%
   Waterplane Area: 4 864 Square feet or 452 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 47%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 126 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,52
      - Longitudinal: 3,04
      - Overall: 0,62
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


Modify to your heart's content :D

[Eugenius]

I think I'll keep it, with just a few tiny modifications re: the extra pair of 3" guns.

Many thanks!

[Borys]

IMO even better, as I tried to recreate - roughly - this ship:
http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte/ships/torpedoboats/gtb1906/index.html

GTB laid down 1909

Displacement:
   734 t light; 758 t standard; 800 t normal; 834 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   278,87 ft / 278,87 ft x 27,00 ft x 8,00 ft (normal load)
   85,00 m / 85,00 m x 8,23 m  x 2,44 m

Armament:
      1 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
      3 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
ONE ON RAISED BOW, TWO ON BRIDGE WINGS

      2 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 73 lbs / 33 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16 314 shp / 12 170 Kw = 29,00 kts
   Range 1 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 77 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   74 - 97

Cost:
   £0,093 million / $0,373 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 9 tons, 1,1%
   Machinery: 428 tons, 53,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 280 tons, 34,9%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 66 tons, 8,2%
   Miscellaneous weights: 18 tons, 2,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     280 lbs / 127 Kg = 8,8 x 4,0 " / 102 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,33
   Metacentric height 1,2 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,15
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,465
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,70 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22,00 ft / 6,71 m
      - Forecastle (10%):   20,00 ft / 6,10 m
      - Mid (13%):      12,00 ft / 3,66 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
      - Stern:      12,00 ft / 3,66 m
      - Average freeboard:   13,00 ft / 3,96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 183,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 76,4%
   Waterplane Area: 4 864 Square feet or 452 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 47%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 135 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,56
      - Longitudinal: 2,68
      - Overall: 0,66
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

[Korpen]

I've tried a couple of things, but I can't quite get what I want...can anyone give me a 750t, 28kt, 90% coal - 10% oil-fired destroyer with three twin 20" torpedo tube installations?

Should meet your requirments:


F-Class IIb, MK Torpedobootjager laid down 1909

Displacement:
   750 t light; 778 t standard; 895 t normal; 988 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   289,53 ft / 288,71 ft x 26,25 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   88,25 m / 88,00 m x 8,00 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      4 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30,51lbs / 13,84kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 122 lbs / 55 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 19,7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 19 056 shp / 14 216 Kw = 30,00 kts
   Range 2 700nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 210 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   81 - 106

Cost:
   £0,106 million / $0,426 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 15 tons, 1,7 %
   Armour: 3 tons, 0,4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 3 tons, 0,4 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 481 tons, 53,8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 231 tons, 25,8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 145 tons, 16,2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 2,2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     201 lbs / 91 Kg = 6,6 x 3,9 " / 100 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,28
   Metacentric height 1,1 ft / 0,3 m
   Roll period: 10,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,23
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,420
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,99 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,82 ft / 0,25 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16,67 ft / 5,08 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (36 %):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Stern:      8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,19 ft / 3,41 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188,9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 59,3 %
   Waterplane Area: 4 724 Square feet or 439 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 44 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 120 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,52
      - Overall: 0,55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Korpen]

If larger guns are prefered:

Torpedobootjager laid down 1909

Displacement:
   750 t light; 783 t standard; 900 t normal; 994 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   301,41 ft / 291,99 ft x 26,25 ft x 9,84 ft (normal load)
   91,87 m / 89,00 m x 8,00 m  x 3,00 m

Armament:
      4 - 4,72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52,91lbs / 24,00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 212 lbs / 96 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 125
   6 - 19,7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 18 411 shp / 13 735 Kw = 29,80 kts
   Range 2 700nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 211 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   81 - 106

Cost:
   £0,113 million / $0,453 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 26 tons, 2,9 %
   Armour: 4 tons, 0,5 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 4 tons, 0,5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 463 tons, 51,4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 237 tons, 26,3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 150 tons, 16,6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 2,2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     195 lbs / 88 Kg = 3,7 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,27
   Metacentric height 1,0 ft / 0,3 m
   Roll period: 10,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,40
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,418
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,13 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,09 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1,64 ft / 0,50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16,67 ft / 5,08 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (34 %):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Stern:      8,20 ft / 2,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,01 ft / 3,36 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 190,2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 58,8 %
   Waterplane Area: 4 770 Square feet or 443 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 44 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 124 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,45
      - Overall: 0,55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

She have lost 0,2 kts, but in return carries more powerfull guns.