Romanian 1892 Torpedoboot

Korpen · September 24, 2008, 03:36:36 PM

This is not a display of a design, it is a competition!
In 1891 the great state of Romania ordered four 200ton torpedo boats from...
well from whom is what this competition is about.
The rules are simple; the ships will be laid down in 1892 (with 1892 engine year), have a speed of at least 21kts, displace 200 tons light and have at least one torpedo tube (single mounts only).
If you are not an active player with a country of your own, feel free to pick a yard in some country (or just a country) and feel free to submit the design it that name. As the constructions of these ships predates the current incarnation of navalism, there is no cost involved with winning/ construction of the winning design.
The price for the winner is the glory, prestige and honour for winning!
Supplied drawings of ships will be considered tiebreakers.

The following design is out of competition, but will be the baseline for judgement. Try to beat it on speed, seakeeping, armament, range, and payload.
One design per player, last one will be considered the valid one.
Motivation for design choices will strongly favour adoption of a given design.

QuoteEnter ship name, Rumänien Torpedbåt laid down 1892

Displacement:
   200 t light; 205 t standard; 232 t normal; 253 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   180,45 ft / 180,45 ft x 19,03 ft x 5,91 ft (normal load)
   55,00 m / 55,00 m x 5,80 m x 1,80 m

Armament:
1 - 1,97" / 50,0 mm guns in single mounts, 3,81lbs / 1,73kg shells, 1892 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 4 lbs / 2 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   2 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4 116 ihp / 3 070 Kw = 24,00 kts
   Range 1 010nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 48 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   29 - 38

Cost:
   £0,028 million / $0,110 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0,2 %
   Machinery: 144 tons, 62,2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 54 tons, 23,2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 31 tons, 13,6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 0,9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     44 lbs / 20 Kg = 11,4 x 2,0 " / 50 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,42
   Metacentric height 0,8 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 9,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,01
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0,65

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,48 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 13,43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 80
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      9,84 ft / 3,00 m
     - Forecastle (15 %):   9,84 ft / 3,00 m (5,91 ft / 1,80 m aft of break)
     - Mid (50 %):      5,91 ft / 1,80 m
     - Quarterdeck (15 %):   4,92 ft / 1,50 m
     - Stern:      4,92 ft / 1,50 m
     - Average freeboard:   6,18 ft / 1,88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 203,1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 56,1 %
   Waterplane Area: 2 114 Square feet or 196 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 16 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 16 lbs/sq ft or 78 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 0,81
      - Overall: 0,53
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

Guinness · September 24, 2008, 06:03:15 PM

I don't have time to work on this tonight, but I'd like to participate. Maybe we should set a deadline?

Desertfox · September 24, 2008, 10:32:23 PM

New Switzerland Destroyer laid down 1892

Displacement:
   200 t light; 206 t standard; 228 t normal; 245 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   185.00 ft / 185.00 ft x 17.00 ft x 6.50 ft (normal load)
   56.39 m / 56.39 m x 5.18 m x 1.98 m

Armament:
1 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1892 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
1 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1892 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft
2 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1892 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 16 lbs / 7 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 14.0" / 355.6 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 3,906 ihp / 2,914 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 1,250nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 38 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   29 - 38

Cost:
   £0.028 million / $0.113 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 140 tons, 61.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 56 tons, 24.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 28 tons, 12.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     38 lbs / 17 Kg = 2.8 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 10.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.82

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.390
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.88 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 13.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 85
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
     - Forecastle (20 %):   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     - Mid (50 %):      6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     - Quarterdeck (15 %):   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     - Stern:      6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     - Average freeboard:   6.40 ft / 1.95 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 205.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 46.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 1,926 Square feet or 179 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 16 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 16 lbs/sq ft or 78 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.04
      - Overall: 0.54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Korpen · September 25, 2008, 02:19:51 AM

Quote from: guinness on September 24, 2008, 06:03:15 PM
I don't have time to work on this tonight, but I'd like to participate. Maybe we should set a deadline?

No panic, but I will not set a fixed deadline. But it will be day or three more before i clsoe the bidding.

IMPORTANT ADDITION: Cruising speed will be set to 12kts for all bids for ease of comparison.

Guinness · September 25, 2008, 09:02:05 PM

The Confederate States of America Tender:

Romanian Torpedo Boat Proposal, Romania Torpedo Boat laid down 1892

Displacement:
   200 t light; 207 t standard; 233 t normal; 254 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   185.00 ft / 185.00 ft x 17.00 ft x 6.49 ft (normal load)
   56.39 m / 56.39 m x 5.18 m x 1.98 m

Armament:
1 - 2.25" / 57.2 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1892 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward, 1 raised gun
2 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.00lbs / 1.36kg shells, 1892 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
2 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1892 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 12 lbs / 5 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 227
   3 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 3,850 ihp / 2,872 Kw = 23.80 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 47 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   29 - 38

Cost:
   £0.028 million / $0.113 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 143 tons, 61.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 53 tons, 22.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 33 tons, 14.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 3 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     40 lbs / 18 Kg = 7.1 x 2.3 " / 57 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
   Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 9.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.07
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.72

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.88 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 13.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      7.50 ft / 2.29 m
     - Forecastle (7 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
     - Mid (50 %):      6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     - Quarterdeck (7 %):   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
     - Stern:      4.50 ft / 1.37 m
     - Average freeboard:   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 204.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 39.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 1,936 Square feet or 180 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 17 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 16 lbs/sq ft or 76 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.85
      - Overall: 0.52
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Kaiser Kirk · September 25, 2008, 11:37:49 PM

Heck, I have trouble with Destroyer designs. TBs.. argh.

Here's my effort. Hotchkiss 47mm and 4x 18"Torps. I'm expecting they'd go for a small turtledeck up front and the forward 47mm is raised to ensure a clear field of fire forward. I thought about cramming 6 torps on her like the IJN Kotaka, but the two extra tons come out of engines, and she's already slower than the others.

Quote
Smeul, Rumania Torpedo boat laid down 1892

Displacement:
   200 t light; 208 t standard; 240 t normal; 266 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   170.00 ft / 170.00 ft x 16.00 ft x 7.73 ft (normal load)
   51.82 m / 51.82 m x 4.88 m x 2.36 m

Armament:
1 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.30lbs / 1.50kg shells, 1892 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward, 1 raised gun
4 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.30lbs / 1.50kg shells, 1892 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
4 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1892 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 17 lbs / 8 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 3,399 ihp / 2,535 Kw = 22.70 kts
   Range 1,200nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 59 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   29 - 39

Cost:
   £0.029 million / $0.115 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 144 tons, 59.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 50 tons, 21.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 40 tons, 16.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     36 lbs / 16 Kg = 11.2 x 1.9 " / 47 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 0.4 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 10.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 45 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.11
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.71

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.63 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 13.04 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Forecastle (20 %):   5.80 ft / 1.77 m
     - Mid (50 %):      5.80 ft / 1.77 m
     - Quarterdeck (15 %):   5.80 ft / 1.77 m
     - Stern:      5.80 ft / 1.77 m
     - Average freeboard:   6.06 ft / 1.85 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 201.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 15.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 1,583 Square feet or 147 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 19 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 16 lbs/sq ft or 76 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.21
      - Overall: 0.54
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Sachmle · September 26, 2008, 07:01:43 AM

Light firepower (Still heavier than Korpens original), but the best speed so far.

Virtejul, Romania Torpedoboat laid down 1892

Displacement:
   200 t light; 206 t standard; 232 t normal; 253 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   196.85 ft / 196.85 ft x 16.40 ft x 6.23 ft (normal load)
   60.00 m / 60.00 m x 5.00 m x 1.90 m

Armament:
2 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1892 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1892 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 8 lbs / 4 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   3 - 18.0" / 457 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 4,142 ihp / 3,090 Kw = 24.50 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 47 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   29 - 38

Cost:
   £0.028 million / $0.112 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 144 tons, 62.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 52 tons, 22.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 32 tons, 13.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 3 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     36 lbs / 16 Kg = 11.2 x 1.9 " / 47 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 0.4 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 10.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.05
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 0.71

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.403
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.03 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 91
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -1.97 ft / -0.60 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      6.89 ft / 2.10 m
     - Forecastle (20 %):   6.56 ft / 2.00 m (6.23 ft / 1.90 m aft of break)
     - Mid (50 %):      5.91 ft / 1.80 m (5.58 ft / 1.70 m aft of break)
     - Quarterdeck (15 %):   4.92 ft / 1.50 m (5.25 ft / 1.60 m before break)
     - Stern:      4.59 ft / 1.40 m
     - Average freeboard:   5.77 ft / 1.76 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 204.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 39.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 1,992 Square feet or 185 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 16 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 15 lbs/sq ft or 73 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.69
      - Overall: 0.51
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Korpen · September 29, 2008, 04:05:39 PM

Well, the winner has been chosen.
It will be the NUS design, as it is felt that it offers the best combination of speed, offensive punch and operational capability. It fairly long L:B is a note of some concern as is the stability, but in the end found acceptable. The higher speed was a very strong factor in its favour. One required modification would however be to put one torpedo tube in the bow to fire directly ahead.

The Swiss tender suffered from a 20% shorter range then the other tenders, without significant advantages in other areas.

The CSA ship have the favour of an outstanding drawing, but with only a 57mm gun instead of a 4,7cm as only advantage over the NUS design while having lower speed it do not offer enough of an advantage.

The Bavarian tender have a not insignificant advantage of about 20% more range then the other ships in the competition as well as an armament well suited to confused melees with equals. However the lower speed makes her less suited for the main job, which would be to attack enemy cruisers and battleships with torpedoes, functions for which the armament is ill-suited.

Kaiser Kirk · September 30, 2008, 11:21:28 PM

I have trouble with tiny ships. I figured I wasn't going to get any faster than what was already offered, so I'd go with a tad more range and heavier weapons suite for a slight speed loss- though still substantially faster than heavy ships of the 1890s my version was nearly a full 2 knots slower than the fastest entry. An interesting little challenge.