Bavarian Boundaries

[Kaiser Kirk]

Greetings,

As indicated earlier, I would like to better establish where the borders of Bavaria are.
As the Default, we have the Navalism map. It's a little fuzzy in the area of Bavaria, and at the requisite resolution, rather hard to interpret. 

So here is a series of Maps, the last being what I think Bavaria is. I could be wrong :)

I came up with this map based on the Navalism map. It's wrong- the red cross hatch area is French, most borders are minorly off.

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Old posts by Borys have provided the most information. From the German background story, it is evident that in 1876, Bavaria looked something like this:

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Moving forward, in 1906 Bavaria apparently wrested territories from several nations- France, Italy, and the Habsburgs... They then in 1908 signed treaties with the Habsburgs and French. The lack of a treaty with the Italians is part of why Bavaria just fortified that border.

As such Bavaria consists of the

Kingdoms of Bavaria, Sachsen, Wurtemberg, and the Grand Duchies of Hessen (border runs on the Rhine) and of Baden, all the Thuringian riff-raff

...

Schlesien* , Sachsen-Anhalt**, Hessen (border runs on the Rhine), Hohenzollern

*Silesia
** Sachsen-Anhalt extends north to just west of Berlin and includes Halle and Madeburg. I have mapped this as Baltic Confederacy.

Holdings in Switzerland were characterized as

you have the German speaking part, and most of the Rheto-Romanic speaking areas

The portions of Austria are :

you have Voralberg, Lichtenstein, Tirol, Salzburg, a little bit of SW Kaernten and Western part of  of Kustenland

As for Italy, Borys posted some maps of a rail route and the boundary.

Taking that information and peering at maps of various German states I get this :

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[Borys]

Great job!
Sorry I could not assist you further.
As to the last map, I see two minor errors:
- You seem to have forgotten Rheinisches Pfalz, which is Bavaria on the West Bank;
- France holds all (most?) of he Rheiland, with Cologne etc.

Borys

[Kaiser Kirk]

Hi Borys,

Your past comments and maps were a great foundation for me to work from. The biggest difficulty was finding maps of German states that showed cities, rivers or topographic features, far to many on the web are political or stylized tourist-style maps. Still, Google came through :)

I didn't realize the French held so much, I had interpreted the border bulge as the Saar and Luxembourg. I can remedy that.

Hmm, well I tried to include Palfz, just hard at this scale. I seem to have drawn turn west to far north of Karlsruhe, was trying to avoid the Saar.

The Saar looks to be French, and the dividing line between the Palantine and Rheinland appears to be along the Nahe River, which makes a nice line from Mainz to Saarbrucken.

So I've tried to fix that, and advanced the French border to the Rhine.

Bonn may be a problem, while searching for info, I've noted the Baltic referring to as a fortress on the Bavarian-French-Baltic Border, yet here it is a bit north of that and in France.

How does this look?

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[Kaiser Kirk]

Well I got an Email correcting the SW Swiss border. The map included extended the boundary around Geneve and Mount Blanc. Here is my rendition :

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[Borys]

 I always thought the French-Bavarian border followed the linguistic divide. But if the interested parties agree, so be it.
Borys

[ledeper]

Only one comment:Draw the border in a strict line Se between Bonn and Wiesbaden.
North of the line:Baltic,South of the line:Bavaria :)

[Korpen]

- France holds all (most?) of he Rheiland, with Cologne etc.

Would like to point out the "Rhineland" have several meanings.
It can mean the modern province of Rheinland-Pfalz, or all the German parts west of the Rhine, or the entire Prussian rheinproinz, or a more general term for the land around the middle Rhine.

Personally, i think that drawing the French border in line with the post war Rheinland-Pfalz province is most in line with the world map and with the maps already posted on Europe.

Yes, much have to do that I do not all of a sudden want an expansionistic France sitting within artillery rang of my most important arms manufactories in (unfortified) Liege.

[Kaiser Kirk]

From the World map, it appears France only narrowly pushes beyond the Belgian border, from the two 'lobes' I though Luxembourg and the Saar may be French.
A border on the Rhine, or including all of the non-Bavarian Rheinland province, would look different. edit : Though the Rhine Province, on the German Empire map in the first post, extended even further across the Rhine.

Anyhow here are some options for comment

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[ctwaterman]

Well I finally went all the way back to page 9 of the old stories and found the world revamping that evidently caused the loss of Trieste to Bavaria.

Which could also explain why Tan built those 2 fortified lines which from what I can tell are now being faced by the Bavarian Defensive fortified lines.  :)  Considering that I just finished refitting those line in 1912 and he just finished building his I think we can call this a well fortified 70 KM stretch of costal plain.  8)

[Kaiser Kirk]

Heh exceedingly well fortified.
I've noticed Korpen moved the discussion to Maps-Europe.

[P3D]

Nah, discussion should be here not in the maps section which supposed to be for references not for debates.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Ok, another go round.

This map represents my best understanding of borders in Central Europe.
-I've added the Baltic-Ukrainian as best as I can figure- should be close enough.
-I modified the Saxon borders, I was using the current Free State of Saxony, not the Kingdom of Saxony, that is fixed.
- Swiss border as told by Maddox earlier.
- French back to Luxembourg and the Saar, which matches the world map- if that is correct
- Alsace is French, because the French say so :)

One question raised in the other thread, under maps, :http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1581.msg30107#new

Was if Hesse-Nassau was Bavarian or Baltic. 
a. Borys statement of boundaries to Bazhell seems to indicate it was?
b. it does not seem to have been included in the Bavarian economy. -is it included in the Baltic?

Also, Sachsen-Anhalt was reported to be Bavarian, but does not appear to be such on the world map, do not appear to be in the Bavarian economy and I have not mapped it as such. 

Quote
  Kingdoms of Bavaria, Sachsen, Wurtemberg, and the Grand Duchies of Hessen (border runs on the Rhine) and of Baden, all the Thuringian riff-raff
...

So...here is the map/

[Kaiser Kirk]

.....well this has been silent to long :)

In the European map thread, Borys brought up the question of Hesse-Nassau.

Borys had told Bazhell that the Hessen duchies were part of Bavaria, the map looks that way, but as you calculated it does not appear that the population was added to Bavaria.

On the other hand, Saxon-Anhalt was also stated as part of Bavaria, but the population isn't there, and it was never mapped that way.

The final map I posted http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2788.0
includes Hesse-nassau and not sachsen-anhalt.

So I have the following questions
1. Are the populations of either area already included in Baltic's Germania population of 31m? That would be a clue they are not Bavarian.
2. If not, should Bavarian indeed have sachsen-anhalt ?  I'm thinking the answer is no- doesn't agree with the world map.
3. If not, should Bavaria have Hesse-Nassau? I'm thinking the answer is yes as it does agree with the world map.
4. If Bavaria does have one or the other of these, what, if any, economic changes would that entail?

[Borys]

I admit to being chaotic - and between ironing out the size of Bavaria, French territorial losses and the accompanying stroy, mistakes and oversights had been commited.
So, in the story I gave Hessian territory to Bavaria, but not the economy. So that economy is either in the Baltikum, or  simply does not exist.
This is the best of my knowledge today.
And Katowice should be in Bavaria, as we are following the pre-1914/21 border.
Borys

[Kaiser Kirk]

Ok, so the Baltic-Bavarian border is adequately mapped as it stand, and not to worry about the people they went....somewhere..:)

As for Katowice, you are of course correct. Katowitz is not prominent as Konigschutte on the map I was using. I can edit to swing out and pick up Katowitz and put a little bulge in before coming down to Pless.