Egyptian Design Studies 1912-1913

[Talos]

Maddox and I were talking about it a few days ago and our initial idea was a naval gun in a high-angle mounting, which would give nice range ashore, as well as larger shell size. I could easily replace them with Army howitzers though, probably around 75mm or so.

An army 75mm howitzer on a ship? Why not a gun instead? The shrapnell shell from a howitzer is pretty useless and the HE shells from so smalle a weapon are not really any good either. Also weight is not that big a deal on a boat, it does not matter all that much if using a 1,2 ton gun or a 600kg howitzer while a range of ~5km or around 8km does matter.

That's why I have two 6" howitzers on there now, for the range. There's nothing floating on the river that would need a 6" gun, so they're only for bombardment beyond the shore.

[Korpen]

Maddox and I were talking about it a few days ago and our initial idea was a naval gun in a high-angle mounting, which would give nice range ashore, as well as larger shell size. I could easily replace them with Army howitzers though, probably around 75mm or so.

An army 75mm howitzer on a ship? Why not a gun instead? The shrapnell shell from a howitzer is pretty useless and the HE shells from so smalle a weapon are not really any good either. Also weight is not that big a deal on a boat, it does not matter all that much if using a 1,2 ton gun or a 600kg howitzer while a range of ~5km or around 8km does matter.

That's why I have two 6" howitzers on there now, for the range. There's nothing floating on the river that would need a 6" gun, so they're only for bombardment beyond the shore.

You mange to confuse me quite a bit. You got 15cm howitzers for range (not that they are that long ranged, up to about 10-11km)? But 15cm gun are overkill and will be used for bank bombardment?
But that do not answer anything about my question about 75mm howitzers...

[Talos]

Sorry, let me lay it out then.

The weapon listed on the SS and what me and Maddox were talking about was a 6"/152mm naval gun mounted on a high-angle mount to basically expand the range of NGS out from the river.

The 3"/76.2mm naval guns are for sinking anything floating on the river. Small boats, etc.

A ~75mm Army howitzer would be much shorter range (but greater then a 75mm gun) and less firepower then the 6" piece for shore bombardment and wouldn't be as useful except for maybe closer range work.

The basic idea is that the ship has direct-fire guns for anti-ship and right-on-the-shore targets with howitzers for distance shots.

[Korpen]

The basic idea is that the ship has direct-fire guns for anti-ship and right-on-the-shore targets with howitzers for distance shots.

See, that is what confuse me: a howitzer will only have ½ to 2/3rd the range of a gun of the same calibre (while weighing about half of a gun).
Also if engaging targets in the open, or when wants to suppress a target, shrapnel is the shell of choice. With shrapnel a high velocity is far superior to a low velocity gun, as the give far larger leather are, at least 3x difference between a gun and howitzer of the same calibre would not surprise me.

[Talos]

Here is a supply and depot ship designed primarily to support the operations of the Red Sea fleet when it is deployed out to the Egyptian portion of the Chagos. Misc weights based on a GC sub depot ship.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1913

Displacement:
   10,370 t light; 10,607 t standard; 11,624 t normal; 12,437 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   524.93 ft / 524.93 ft x 65.62 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
   160.00 m / 160.00 m x 20.00 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      2 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 54 lbs / 25 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 4,983 shp / 3,717 Kw = 14.20 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,830 tons (60% coal)

Complement:
   559 - 727

Cost:
   £0.434 million / $1.735 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 7 tons, 0.1 %
   Armour: 6 tons, 0.1 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 6 tons, 0.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 207 tons, 1.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,651 tons, 31.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,253 tons, 10.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 6,500 tons, 55.9 %
  - -2,000 t:  Accommodation for 1000 enlisted men
   -1,000 t:  Accommodation for 250 officers
                -2000 t:  Fuel
                -500 t:  Workshops and parts
                -500 t:  Ordnance reloads
   -300 t:  Amenities (library, canteen, etc)
   -100 t:  Derricks
   -25 t:  Command facilities
   -50 t:  Medical facilities
   -25 t:  Wireless

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20,543 lbs / 9,318 Kg = 1,521.7 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.00
   Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.600
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 24 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 26
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Stern:      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   23.16 ft / 7.06 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 192.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,642 Square feet or 2,289 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 167 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 92 lbs/sq ft or 451 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.04
      - Longitudinal: 1.89
      - Overall: 1.10
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[The Rock Doctor]

Is this a cost-effective alternative to enlarging whatever base facilities exist in the Egyptian Chagos now?

Design-wise, you have some extra hull strength - I would reduce the length of the ship until hull strength reaches 1.00.  The result, I think, would be better stability (and a less expensive hull).

[Talos]

Chagos basically has nothing right now. Being built to mercantile standards, I think a pair of these ships would be far cheaper then establishing a supply base and enlarging facilities there. They can also be used for general cargo when not in use for fleet operations.

I'll reduce the length and see what I come up with.

[ciders]

I relaunch this topic. Too many holes in the order of battle of the Egyptian Fleet.

Well, this supply ship is not perfect, but I think he constitue a good departure. I'm going to work on this ship. Is somebody else than the Rock have an idea ?

[Kaiser Kirk]

Well I have a notion that you wish to use this in lieu of a support base, i.e. as a tender.
The first 3000 tons seem devoted to troop transport.  In my opinion, which may differ from others, there also seems to be 3,000 tons devoted to tender-like functions,  but I at least would rather see it specified that these are the tender attributes .  Say
Tender
                -2000 t:  Fuel
                -500 t:  Workshops and parts
                -500 t:  Ordnance reloads1000t - tender- stores, etc.

that would establish that this ship is intended to support 12,000 (I think) tons of shipping. 

Other than that I see no issues.

[ciders]

I think that Egypt especially needs transport ships for troops and military equipment. These ships will be very useful for the liaisons between Egypt and Sudan, and farther, towards Chagos Islands. What do you think of that :

- 2,000 t:  Accommodation for 1000 enlisted men
- 1,000 t:  Accommodation for 250 officers
- 450 t:  Workshops and parts
- 250 t:  Amenities (library, canteen, etc)
- 250 t:  Ordnance reloads
- 25 t:  Command facilities
- 50 t:  Medical facilities
- 25 t:  Wireless

So, 4050 tons of load.

[Korpen]

I think that Egypt especially needs transport ships for troops and military equipment. These ships will be very useful for the liaisons between Egypt and Sudan, and farther, towards Chagos Islands. What do you think of that :

- 2,000 t:  Accommodation for 1000 enlisted men
- 1,000 t:  Accommodation for 250 officers
- 450 t:  Workshops and parts
- 250 t:  Amenities (library, canteen, etc)
- 250 t:  Ordnance reloads
- 25 t:  Command facilities
- 50 t:  Medical facilities
- 25 t:  Wireless

So, 4050 tons of load.

At a very minimum I think that you can leave out the posts I marked bold. This due to the fact that all that is part of the ordinary fittings of a ship of any size, and given that the actual crew will only be a fraction of what SS assumes I think it is safe to just count all such things as normal fittings. Springsharp is not all that good for transport ship due to the fact that they are volume, not weight critical while springsharp do not really handle volume at all.   

[ciders]

Yep. It will be easier to " find " than to build civil ships. :-[

[Kaiser Kirk]

I wasn't trying to imply that you shouldn't have troop transport capacity, rather that if you intend for the ship to act as a tender under the rules, it would be nice to have the weight assigned to that function specifically noted. You currently have

   Miscellaneous weights: 6,500 tons, 55.9 %
  - -2,000 t:  Accommodation for 1000 enlisted men
   -1,000 t:  Accommodation for 250 officers
                -2000 t:  Fuel
                -500 t:  Workshops and parts
                -500 t:  Ordnance reloads
   -300 t:  Amenities (library, canteen, etc)
   -100 t:  Derricks
   -25 t:  Command facilities
   -50 t:  Medical facilities
   -25 t:  Wireless

For example you could say :

   Miscellaneous weights: 6,500 tons, 55.9 %
  - -2,000 t:  Accommodation for 1000 enlisted men
   -1,000 t:  Accommodation for 250 officers
     Tender -2000 t:  Fuel
     Tender -500 t:  Workshops and parts
     Tender -500 t:  Ordnance reloads
     Tender -300 t:  Amenities (library, canteen, etc)
   -100 t:  Derricks
   -25 t:  Command facilities
   -50 t:  Medical facilities
   -25 t:  Wireless

or consolidate as :

   Miscellaneous weights: 6,500 tons, 55.9 %
  - -2,000 t:  Accommodation for 1000 enlisted men
   -1,000 t:  Accommodation for 250 officers
     Tender -3800 t: 
   -100 t:  Derricks
   -25 t:  Command facilities
   -50 t:  Medical facilities
   -25 t:  Wireless

The derricks should be standard fittings, so I presume you simply want "extra".

[The Rock Doctor]

So what is the current Egyptian order of battle?

[ciders]

Not very terrific. And I don't know the status of some ships :

- 4 armored cruisers : your Campeon and your Paladin, and two Bardai class
- 2 protected cruisers, Saada Class
- 7 " light cruisers " ( Egyptian term ) : 5 Fleurus-II ( French sloops ) and 2 Madness class
- 4 destroyers, 1905-class ( Italian )
- 10 Torpedoes ram ( 6 A-Class, 4 E-Class from CSA )
- 8 riverine gunboats

And maybe :

- 3 battleships of Kuffrah class : but they disappear of the sim reports of Talos in 1913 ; so scrap ?
- 10 torpedoes boats of 1891, with two torpedoes each, TB-class
- 6 TR-class ( maybe the 6 TR-113 sold for scrap to the CSA )