CSA Speculative Design Studies

[Guinness]

Yeah, but how much? In the past, P3D theorized that I could convert an entire large AC from mixed firing to oil firing for a nominal 0.1 BP and $ (if I recall correctly). I'd expect this smaller ship would be even cheaper.

There's also the question of how much work is required. If these ships carried both solely oil fired boilers, and solely coal fired boilers, we might expect that all the coal fired would be removed, leaving only oil firing. The only cost then is that required to convert some of the former boiler spaces to bunkerage, and feed lines, etc., which I'd expect to be pretty cheap.

But, since even a leftover oil boiler would need to be overhauled, maybe I just also pay the usual refit cost? Say 0.23 BP and $, for a total of 1.267 BP and $? Time to complete somewhere around 10 months maybe?

[The Rock Doctor]

I don't recall the specifics off the top of my head, but I do refer to it in the proposed new ship construction rules.  I assume the existing rule set speaks to it as well.

[Guinness]

In the newly proposed (adopted?) rules:

Reconstruction

This is the most elaborate type of refit, and marks a comprehensive change to the ship's internal structure or hull form.

The base dollar cost of a reconstruction is 25% of the original build cost.  There is also a BP requirement, 10% of original build requirement, as a result of widespread changes and movement of bulkheads.  Finally, there is also the dollar and BP costs of new components described below.  Refurbishments take the greater of 2.5 months, or 25% of the ship's original minimum time of construction plus one month per BP of new components added to the ship.

Armament, machinery and functional miscellaneous weight

Main battery turret/barbettes can be raised.  Machinery spaces can be enlarged at the expense of other components.

BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost = twice the BP cost.

Armor

Internal belts can be replaced or removed.

BP cost = (tonnage/1000); $ cost is equal to BP cost.

Hull, fittings & equipment

The bow may be lengthened by up to 5% of overall length.  A new section may be added amidships, up to 5% of overall length.

BP cost = double the change in overall light displacement; $ cost is equal to BP.

Fuel, ammunition & stores; non-functional miscellaneous weight

Overall bunkerage can be increased.  Overall weight of main battery magazine can be increased.

No BP cost; $ cost is (tonnage/2000).

(I'm assuming a change of this scope to be a reconstruction)

So using the new rules, 25% fo the original build $ is $0.5825, 10% of the original BP is 0.233 BP. So if I understand that much correctly, and also pay full price in $ and BP for the new misc weights minus scrap values, I get:

$1.6195 and 1.27 BP.

Time:
Original build time was 11.33 months, so round to 12. A quarter of that is 3 months, plus 1.27 months for new BP, gives me 4.27 months.

[The Rock Doctor]

They're still proposed.  I'm too preoccupied starting players to get around to closing the deal.

Agree that the bunkerage increase requires the reconstruction.  As to cost, the miscellaneous weight is mostly functional - so it's $2 per 1,000 t.

[Guinness]

Comes out to be $2.24 or so and 1.27BP.

Why 2x the BP cost for functional misc. weight? If we were building a new ship, we'd pay $1 per 1000t of misc. weight (give or take) or less, since we pay by light displacement. I can see paying a little if you are taking stuff out of a ship and putting it in, but isn't that covered in the blanket reconstruction cost?

[The Rock Doctor]

I based the costing on miscellaneous weight used for devices like fire control, so yes - this isn't necessarily appropriate.

[Guinness]

Ok, well unless anyone objects, I'll plan to go forward with this idea in the near future using the proposed new rules, except substituting the cost = bp model for the misc. weights for these ships. In other words, each conversion will cost the CSA $1.6195 and 1.27 BP. I'll plan for the first conversion to take 6 months, but if I end up doing a bunch, I expect the last few might take closer to the 4 month and change minimum conversion time.

[Guinness]

While the Thomasville class may be destined for new life as Torpedo Boat tenders, the preceding Pasadenas are being studied for conversion to a new role as minelaying frigates. For this much more limited conversion, 4 4.85" 55 pounder guns would be removed and again set aside for shore installation. The 3 pounder guns would also be removed, as would the torpedo tubes. New 1.5" AA guns would be installed, as would handling gear for 210 mines. Finally, the boilers would be reconditioned and converted to 100% oil firing. It is foreseen that these conversions would each take 3 months.

CSS Pasadena original design: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=747.msg4940#msg4940

CSS Pasadena Refit, CSA Minelaying Frigate laid down 1898

Displacement:
   2,491 t light; 2,592 t standard; 2,933 t normal; 3,206 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   330.00 ft / 330.00 ft x 41.00 ft x 14.00 ft (normal load)
   100.58 m / 100.58 m x 12.50 m  x 4.27 m

Armament:
      2 - 4.85" / 123 mm guns in single mounts, 55.00lbs / 24.95kg shells, 1898 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
      4 - 4.85" / 123 mm guns in single mounts, 55.00lbs / 24.95kg shells, 1898 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1914 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1898 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 341 lbs / 155 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 190

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   330.00 ft / 100.58 m   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,650 ihp / 7,199 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 615 tons

Complement:
   199 - 259

Cost:
   £0.308 million / $1.233 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 44 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 90 tons, 3.1 %
      - Belts: 73 tons, 2.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 16 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 1,313 tons, 44.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 804 tons, 27.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 442 tons, 15.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 241 tons, 8.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,272 lbs / 577 Kg = 22.3 x 4.9 " / 123 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.51
   Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 10.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.542
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.05 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.17 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Stern:      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.51 ft / 3.20 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 165.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,372 Square feet or 871 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 83 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 57 lbs/sq ft or 279 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.26
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


Misc Weights:
210 tons - 210 Mines
31 tons -  Misc equipment and reserve

Costs of conversion:

New equipment:
210 tons armament (mines): 0.210 BP and $0.420
31 tons Misc non-functional items: 0.031 BP and $0.031

Refit cost: $0.479

Total: 0.241 BP and $0.93

[Guinness]

An idea for a new standard Torpedo Ram for fleet duties. It's likely that the first couple of batches would be pressed into service as leaders for their predecessors to start with, however.

CSA 1914 Torpedo Ram, CSA Torpedo Ram laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   1,000 t light; 1,045 t standard; 1,213 t normal; 1,347 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   343.11 ft / 334.00 ft x 28.00 ft x 11.02 ft (normal load)
   104.58 m / 101.80 m x 8.53 m  x 3.36 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1914 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      1 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1914 Model
     Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
   Weight of broadside 204 lbs / 92 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 180
   6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26,000 shp / 19,396 Kw = 31.56 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 302 tons

Complement:
   102 - 133

Cost:
   £0.186 million / $0.743 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 27 tons, 2.2 %
   Armour: 11 tons, 0.9 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 11 tons, 0.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 629 tons, 51.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 288 tons, 23.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 212 tons, 17.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 46 tons, 3.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     238 lbs / 108 Kg = 4.4 x 4.8 " / 121 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
   Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 11.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.29
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.91

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.412
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.93 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 63 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 77
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 24.23 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.25 ft / 6.17 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17.50 ft / 5.33 m
      - Mid (38 %):      15.50 ft / 4.72 m (7.00 ft / 2.13 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Stern:      7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.93 ft / 3.33 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,799 Square feet or 539 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 52 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 129 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.01
      - Overall: 0.53
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Misc Weights:
25 tons: Fire control
6 tons: Torpedoes
4 tons: 12 depth charges (launched from stern racks)
11 tons: Reserve

Range at top speed: 12 hours, 380 nm
Range at 28.5 knots: 18.3 hours, 524 nm
Range at 15 knots: 3000 nm

Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.14

[The Rock Doctor]

Nice, although I'm not keen on the (perfectly legal) high length to beam ratio.

[Guinness]

Here's a version with a L/B ratio under 11. Loses 1t misc weight, and a little range:

CSA 1914 Torpedo Ram Lower L/B, CSA Torpedo Ram laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   1,000 t light; 1,045 t standard; 1,211 t normal; 1,344 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   343.11 ft / 334.00 ft x 30.50 ft x 10.10 ft (normal load)
   104.58 m / 101.80 m x 9.30 m  x 3.08 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1914 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      1 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1914 Model
     Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
   Weight of broadside 204 lbs / 92 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 180
   6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26,000 shp / 19,396 Kw = 31.48 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 299 tons

Complement:
   102 - 133

Cost:
   £0.186 million / $0.742 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 27 tons, 2.3 %
   Armour: 11 tons, 0.9 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 11 tons, 0.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 628 tons, 51.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 289 tons, 23.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 211 tons, 17.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 45 tons, 3.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     248 lbs / 113 Kg = 4.6 x 4.8 " / 121 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
   Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 11.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.82

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.412
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.95 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 85
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 24.23 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.25 ft / 6.17 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17.50 ft / 5.33 m
      - Mid (38 %):      15.50 ft / 4.72 m (7.00 ft / 2.13 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Stern:      7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.93 ft / 3.33 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 188.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 6,316 Square feet or 587 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 52 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 131 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.85
      - Overall: 0.52
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Misc Weights:
25 tons: Fire control
6 tons: Torpedoes
4 tons: 12 depth charges (launched from stern racks)
10 tons: Reserve

Range at top speed: 11.9 hours, 375 nm
Range at 28.5 knots: 18.0 hours, 515 nm
Range at 15 knots: 2990 nm

Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.14

[The Rock Doctor]

That looks good.  Certainly a better boat than my GC equivalent, but I'm already re-designing the second batch of thousand tonners anyway.

[Guinness]

One more version. This one has 4" 30 pounder guns instead of the 4.75" 50 pounders, and a very little bit more speed and seakeeping.

Now I'm torn. My instinct is that the 4.75" gun's time has come...

CSA 1914 Torpedo Ram 4 inch, CSA Torpedo Ram laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   1,000 t light; 1,038 t standard; 1,204 t normal; 1,336 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   343.23 ft / 334.00 ft x 30.50 ft x 10.04 ft (normal load)
   104.62 m / 101.80 m x 9.30 m  x 3.06 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 30.00lbs / 13.61kg shells, 1914 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      1 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1914 Model
     Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
   Weight of broadside 124 lbs / 56 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 26,000 shp / 19,396 Kw = 31.51 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 298 tons

Complement:
   101 - 132

Cost:
   £0.177 million / $0.707 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 16 tons, 1.4 %
   Armour: 9 tons, 0.7 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 9 tons, 0.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 643 tons, 53.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 287 tons, 23.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 204 tons, 16.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 45 tons, 3.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     262 lbs / 119 Kg = 8.2 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.32
   Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 10.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.86

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.412
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.95 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.28 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 81
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 24.23 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.50 ft / 6.25 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17.75 ft / 5.41 m
      - Mid (38 %):      15.75 ft / 4.80 m (7.25 ft / 2.21 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   7.25 ft / 2.21 m
      - Stern:      7.25 ft / 2.21 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.18 ft / 3.41 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 187.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 76.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 6,316 Square feet or 587 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 53 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 129 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.90
      - Overall: 0.53
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Misc Weights:
25 tons: Fire control
6 tons: Torpedoes
4 tons: 12 depth charges (launched from stern racks)
10 tons: Reserve

Range at top speed: 11.9 hours, 375 nm
Range at 28.5 knots: 18.0 hours, 515 nm
Range at 15 knots: 2990 nm

Seakeeping at 28.5 knots: 1.08

[The Rock Doctor]

I think 4" is entirely appropriate for this period, really. 

I noticed you're not using deck mount + hoist...I should see what the rest of y'all are doing, as I've constantly been including them.

[Borys]

In this period mount&hoist is pproproate for small cruisers and up. Ships like this one here would have deck moungts.
Borys