CSA Speculative Design Studies

[Guinness]

I'll throw these semi-serious ideas in one thread from now on, to avoid too much clutter. The first:

A study for a design to replace the aging Confederate 1st Class Cruisers. This ship would, of course, require a new 9.25" (probably L45 or L50) 400 pounder gun being developed, as well as a twin 5.5" 75 pounder mount.

I'm interested to see what others think of this. The CSA has never been enamored of battlecruisers, but is considering one. The main advantage of this ship is that it is smaller, allowing other construction for the same budget.
CSA 1st Class Cruiser, CSA 1st Class Cruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   16,000 t light; 16,835 t standard; 19,116 t normal; 20,941 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   710.00 ft / 695.00 ft x 78.00 ft x 27.43 ft (normal load)
   216.41 m / 211.84 m x 23.77 m  x 8.36 m

Armament:
      8 - 9.25" / 235 mm guns (4x2 guns), 400.00lbs / 181.44kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,115 lbs / 1,867 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 190

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   450.00 ft / 137.16 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   225.00 ft / 68.58 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   450.00 ft / 137.16 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.75" / 197 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         1.50" / 38 mm
   3rd:   0.75" / 19 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 7.75" / 197 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 29.02 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,106 tons

Complement:
   812 - 1,056

Cost:
   £2.365 million / $9.460 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 522 tons, 2.7 %
   Armour: 4,797 tons, 25.1 %
      - Belts: 2,797 tons, 14.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 922 tons, 4.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 960 tons, 5.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 119 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 3,190 tons, 16.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,120 tons, 37.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,116 tons, 16.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 370 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     25,231 lbs / 11,445 Kg = 63.8 x 9.3 " / 235 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 16.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.36

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.450
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.91 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.36 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 27.35 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.00 ft / 8.84 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (40 %):      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Quarterdeck (17 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Stern:      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.05 ft / 6.11 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 34,579 Square feet or 3,212 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 134 lbs/sq ft or 653 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.24
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weights:

250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Marconi
25t: Extra accomodations and flag facilities
70t: Misc Equipment and reserve

[P3D]

2700t heavier than my similar ship with the same main armament and not showing much for it. Might want to slim her down if you want more ships.

[Tanthalas]

if 25 tons is full flag facilities perhaps mine on my new CL arn't so "limited" at 16 lol

[Guinness]

P3D: are you referring to your Alectos?

[P3D]

P3D: are you referring to your Alectos?

yes.

[Guinness]

Well, the hull forms are a lot different, but this one has a lot better seakeeping (which may or may not matter, I don't really know). That probably accounts for a big chunk of weight, and there's a bit more here in misc weights too. This ship is also a lot more stable (again, I'm not sure that really matters much).

I'll mess around with at least trying to get this one in a type 2 dock and see what I get.

All that said, I'm more interested in evaluating the concept of a 9.2"(ish) cruiser? Is there value in it? I've also fiddled with an 8x7.5" ship with similar range on 9000t...

[Guinness]

Here's a second pass. Displaces a little less, has a little less range, but worked in 2 more 9.25" guns. Alternately, the same ship can carry 8 10" guns, with all else being the same (maybe slightly more armor), which might be a worthwhile idea, since I'd have to develop a new gun anyway.

CSA 1st Class Cruiser, CSA 1st Class Cruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   15,920 t light; 16,835 t standard; 18,882 t normal; 20,520 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   710.00 ft / 695.00 ft x 78.00 ft x 25.65 ft (normal load)
   216.41 m / 211.84 m x 23.77 m  x 7.82 m

Armament:
      10 - 9.25" / 235 mm guns (4 mounts), 400.00lbs / 181.44kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (6x2 guns), 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,915 lbs / 2,229 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 190

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   380.00 ft / 115.82 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   295.00 ft / 89.92 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   380.00 ft / 115.82 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     Main Belt covers 84 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         1.50" / 38 mm
   3rd:   0.75" / 19 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 7.00" / 178 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 80,000 shp / 59,680 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 7,200nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,685 tons

Complement:
   805 - 1,047

Cost:
   £2.496 million / $9.986 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 621 tons, 3.3 %
   Armour: 4,642 tons, 24.6 %
      - Belts: 2,554 tons, 13.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,000 tons, 5.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 980 tons, 5.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 107 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 3,190 tons, 16.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,097 tons, 37.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,962 tons, 15.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 370 tons, 2.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     22,681 lbs / 10,288 Kg = 57.3 x 9.3 " / 235 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 16.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.475
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.91 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.36 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 27.35 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.00 ft / 8.84 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   22.50 ft / 6.86 m
      - Mid (42 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (17 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.36 ft / 5.60 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 35,330 Square feet or 3,282 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 664 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.05
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weights:

250t: Fire Control
25t: Long Range Marconi
25t: Extra accomodations and flag facilities
70t: Misc Equipment and reserve

[P3D]

Well, the hull forms are a lot different, but this one has a lot better seakeeping (which may or may not matter, I don't really know). That probably accounts for a big chunk of weight, and there's a bit more here in misc weights too. This ship is also a lot more stable (again, I'm not sure that really matters much).

I'll mess around with at least trying to get this one in a type 2 dock and see what I get.

All that said, I'm more interested in evaluating the concept of a 9.2"(ish) cruiser? Is there value in it? I've also fiddled with an 8x7.5" ship with similar range on 9000t...

I kept length to 170m, that essentially limited my displacement to 13000t (keeping 29kts speed), seakeeping and stability.

[Borys]

All that said, I'm more interested in evaluating the concept of a 9.2"(ish) cruiser? Is there value in it? I've also fiddled with an 8x7.5" ship with similar range on 9000t...

I think 9,2" (ish) cruisers are a valid concept. As long as they don't get too large. Mine is 11,000 tonnes. I would not build a 15,000 tonner with such guns - I'd use 11".

I think there a niche for 8x7.5" ships as well. Again, IMO the trick is not to make them too big. Mine is 7 or 8 thousand tonnes.

Borys

[Jefgte]

For 15000t cruisers with 9"2. about 12 to 15 guns are neccessary.


Jef  ;)

[Borys]

Again I agree.

Borys

[Korpen]

For 15000t cruisers with 9"2. about 12 to 15 guns are neccessary.


Jef  ;)

Steel rain designs have been posted before :)
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=898.msg23526#msg23526

[Guinness]

Turning back to 7.5" gun armed Cruisers, the CSA version of a treaty cruiser.

First a question though: is a 7.5" armed 10,000t (light) cruiser a cruiser for FC purposes, or a capital ship? I'm assuming cruiser for the moment...

CSA 2nd Class Cruiser secondary armor, CSA 2nd Class Cruiser laid down 1916 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   10,000 t light; 10,555 t standard; 12,059 t normal; 13,263 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 546.00 ft x 62.00 ft x 24.94 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 166.42 m x 18.90 m  x 7.60 m

Armament:
      10 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (5x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.75lbs / 0.79kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2,415 lbs / 1,095 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 225
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   359.00 ft / 109.42 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   2.50" / 64 mm   167.00 ft / 50.90 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     20.00 ft / 6.10 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   2.50" / 64 mm   359.00 ft / 109.42 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.00" / 127 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         1.50" / 38 mm
   3rd:   0.75" / 19 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -
   5th:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.25" / 32 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 72,000 shp / 53,712 Kw = 29.53 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,708 tons

Complement:
   574 - 747

Cost:
   £1.669 million / $6.676 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 319 tons, 2.6 %
   Armour: 2,325 tons, 19.3 %
      - Belts: 1,270 tons, 10.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 477 tons, 4.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 522 tons, 4.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 57 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 2,871 tons, 23.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,251 tons, 35.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,060 tons, 17.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 234 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12,957 lbs / 5,877 Kg = 61.4 x 7.5 " / 191 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 15.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.62
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.81 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.37 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.77 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.00 ft / 8.84 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (48 %):      19.50 ft / 5.94 m
      - Quarterdeck (17 %):   19.50 ft / 5.94 m
      - Stern:      19.50 ft / 5.94 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.29 ft / 6.49 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,555 Square feet or 2,095 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 110 lbs/sq ft or 537 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.85
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weights:

100t: Fire Control
25t: Marconi
4t: Torpedoes
25t: Extra accommodations and flag facilities
80t: Misc Equipment and reserve

[The Rock Doctor]

This would be an armored cruiser under the BB/AC architecture, so would require 250 t FC.

[Borys]

Quite good.
Borys