somthing I played with Yesterday

[Tanthalas]

USNSS Victoria, USNS Light Battle Ship laid down 1912

Displacement:
   15,000 t light; 15,708 t standard; 16,986 t normal; 18,008 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   540.00 ft / 538.00 ft x 81.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
   164.59 m / 163.98 m x 24.69 m  x 7.92 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3 mounts), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 7,628 lbs / 3,460 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 85

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   358.00 ft / 109.12 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   180.00 ft / 54.86 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   355.08 ft / 108.23 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   3.75" / 95 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   3rd:   5.50" / 140 mm         -               -
   4th:   5.50" / 140 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7.00" / 178 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 56,360 shp / 42,045 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 13.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,300 tons

Complement:
   743 - 967

Cost:
   £1.641 million / $6.562 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 954 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 4,902 tons, 28.9 %
      - Belts: 2,323 tons, 13.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,380 tons, 8.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,099 tons, 6.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 100 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 2,247 tons, 13.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,897 tons, 40.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,986 tons, 11.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21,282 lbs / 9,653 Kg = 24.6 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 16.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.69
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.17

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.525
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.64 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.19 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Mid (50 %):      25.00 ft / 7.62 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.50 ft / 6.25 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 156.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 29,703 Square feet or 2,759 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 157 lbs/sq ft or 767 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 2.01
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Opinions? im not realy up to speed with world ship building, but looking around the Pacific she would be fairly decent I think.

[The Rock Doctor]

You'd want to set aside a few hundred tonnes for flag facilities and fire control.

She's reasonably fast and powerful for her displacement, but the current generation of Dutch armored frigates would smash her...

[Desertfox]

You might find this useful:

Ships built by NS between 1910 and 1912:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2508.0

The SS2 reports for some of those ships, plus some neverwheres and plans:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2390.0

You design looks good, but 26 knots might be a bit too slow for the Pacific. Also all the Swiss Super Cruisers are capable of 27 knots. So I would suggest dumping a couple of guns for a knot of speed. You might also want to take a look at NSS Independance for a similar ship currently in NS service.

[Tanthalas]

I could just up the tonage on it LOL (the plan was as with the italian light bbs rapid production to overcome the shortfalls)

[Korpen]

Also all the Swiss Super Cruisers are capable of 27 knots.

All one of them... :P
Or maybe two if Constellation was added, but i remember seeing Ithekro bringing her in line with the engine rules, so she lost a bit of speed.

[Tanthalas]

USNSS Victoria, USNS Light Battle Ship laid down 1912

Displacement:
   18,000 t light; 18,778 t standard; 20,458 t normal; 21,802 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   590.00 ft / 588.00 ft x 87.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
   179.83 m / 179.22 m x 26.52 m  x 8.53 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3 mounts), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 7,628 lbs / 3,460 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 85

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   412.00 ft / 125.58 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   176.00 ft / 53.64 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   411.60 ft / 125.46 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   3rd:   5.50" / 140 mm         -               -
   4th:   5.50" / 140 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7.00" / 178 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 79,997 shp / 59,678 Kw = 27.91 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,025 tons

Complement:
   854 - 1,111

Cost:
   £1.877 million / $7.510 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 954 tons, 4.7 %
   Armour: 5,623 tons, 27.5 %
      - Belts: 2,832 tons, 13.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,418 tons, 6.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,261 tons, 6.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 113 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 3,190 tons, 15.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,894 tons, 38.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,458 tons, 12.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 340 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     24,425 lbs / 11,079 Kg = 28.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.25 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Mid (50 %):      25.00 ft / 7.62 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.68 ft / 6.30 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 34,081 Square feet or 3,166 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 158 lbs/sq ft or 771 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.81
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Try 2

[Desertfox]

Out of curiosity, why the 8 guns in 3 mounts? The secondary armor is really heavy. Reduce it and you could go with bigger guns. Also why the 3 inchers in casemate mounts?

[Tanthalas]

Out of curiosity, why the 8 guns in 3 mounts? The secondary armor is really heavy. Reduce it and you could go with bigger guns. Also why the 3 inchers in casemate mounts?

IC stability issues (OOC I like the way it looks lol), I didnt think it was over heavy tbh, and DOPH suposed to be mount and hoist on the 3" (never work on a ship when you cant see strait anymore)

[miketr]

You might want to look at the following Fast Warships being built by other Pacific Powers.

3 Classes of Armored Frigates (BC's) from the Netherlands laid down since the Pacific War.

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=675.msg18134#msg18134

1 Clas of Iberian Armored Cruiser laid down in 1912

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=673.msg26050#msg26050

1 class of Brandenburg Large Cruiser to be laid down this year

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2548.msg27215#msg27215

Michael

[Tanthalas]

so mike (or anyone else) how you think this version would stack up against that group.

USNSS Invincible, USNS Light Battle Ship laid down 1912

Displacement:
   22,442 t light; 23,351 t standard; 25,000 t normal; 26,319 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   666.00 ft / 658.00 ft x 97.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
   203.00 m / 200.56 m x 29.57 m  x 8.23 m

Armament:
      9 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x3 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
   Weight of broadside 8,526 lbs / 3,867 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 85

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   460.00 ft / 140.21 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   198.00 ft / 60.35 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   460.00 ft / 140.21 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7.00" / 178 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 76,622 shp / 57,160 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 13.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,968 tons

Complement:
   993 - 1,292

Cost:
   £2.108 million / $8.434 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,066 tons, 4.3 %
   Armour: 8,144 tons, 32.6 %
      - Belts: 4,476 tons, 17.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,954 tons, 7.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,585 tons, 6.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 129 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 3,055 tons, 12.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,926 tons, 39.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,558 tons, 10.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     36,073 lbs / 16,362 Kg = 41.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.508
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13.50 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Mid (50 %):      25.00 ft / 7.62 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.50 ft / 6.25 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 168.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 42,828 Square feet or 3,979 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 820 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.40
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

Too beamy. Too heavy end and upper belt. And NS iirc sticked to 6" secondaries. Low magazine capacity IMO for a cruiser.

[Desertfox]

I think you are designing the wrong ship. NS at this time does not need BCs. They have Independance and the 2 Constitutions (count as 1  27knot BC), plus the overarmed heavy cruiser Interceptor. The Neatherlands have 2-3, Iberia 1, and the Germans none (yet). NS does however need cruisers and destroyers, especially destroyers.

I found the following:

These are the plans I had for NS. You don't have to follow them at all, but they can give you an idea as to what NS was looking at. Note, plenty of DDs and Cruisers, then the heavy stuff.

1913 Plan

2 AC Olympia (Furataka clones)
24 DD William Tell class  (570t, 3x4", 4xTT, 27kts)
10 Multi Purpose PBs (light minelayers/sweepers)

1914-15 plan

2 AC Phoenix (9" armed heavy cruisers)
100 PT
4 CC Improved Auroras (heavy light cruisers)
9 DDL Kidd class (740t, 5x4", 4xTT, 27kts)
? (3?) CB
? (20?) LC Different classes

1916 Plan

1 BB Alaska class (fast Ise clone)
2 BC Revenge class (Fisher follies, later to be converted to CVs)
1 CA Kaminari class (16x8" guns!)

1917+
1 BB United States (Caracciolo meets Nagato)
2 BC Constitution (US Lexingtons with triple 12" guns)
1 CV Enterprise (CV version of above)

[miketr]

I think it stacks well against all except the Dutch Warships. All of ours are at a clear fire power disadvantage vs. those armored frigates.  At the same time their armor belts are not in line with their firepower.  Its a question of defense, firepower and speed; pick any two.  

I would suggest that the first thing New Switzerland wants to do is work on a larger gun for follow on designs.  

A to the design, P3D is correct NS went for 6" secondaries so you might want to stick with that.  If you want to go with anything thicker...  I would reduce to the ends to 4" and see if you can't get another 1" or 2" of the upper belt, perhaps putting it into the armored deck.  Perhaps some more Misc Weight as a construction reserve...  Also people are moving towards putting torpedo defense systems on warships.  Something New Switzerland and its love of all things torpedo might want to consider.

Its not bad over all but you have to look at who do you view as your likely enemies and what is its mission?  If you are worried about the Dutch, they have 6 Armored Frigates will this design be enough with your older designs?  

NS has a large number of 12" gun warships might it be better served by working on some smaller warships till a heavier main guns is aquired?  

Michael  

[Tanthalas]

oh atm its just a theory ship, I like DF like the 12" gun (remember my agonizing over shifting to 14" with Italia =P ), realy she is a derflinger clone (lighter belt heavier deck and one more gun) I liked the german aproach to BCs.....

this is what I was actualy kind of Picturing for a build plan (as best I could figure out anyway looking at the ship lists)

1913

2 AC (10" armed)
14 DD (1000t, 4x4" or 4X5", 6xTT, 30kts)
10 minelayers/sweepers

1914

2 AC (10" armed)
14 DD (1000t, 4x4" or 4X5", 6xTT, 30kts)
10 minelayers/sweepers

1915

2? BC/BB (either 9X12" or 9X14" armed)

thats about as far ahead as I had thought at the moment LOL, but the 10" cruisers well there is already a dandy of one SSd out in the Italia section ((hey im not above taking my own plans and modifying them ^.^ )


OH and I havn't managed to find a list of developed NS guns T.T, another thing is I cant find anything after 1908 (just the we are building the folowing report) will I need to do up the sim reports to curent? Not that I would object just wondering (I actualy LIKE doing the reports LOL)

[Desertfox]

I never got around to doing a list of NS guns but NS has the following as of 1912:

14/45 (not in service, research about to start)
12/45
10/45
9/50
8/45 (twin mount)
8/40 (single mount)
6/45
5/40 (Great Lake ships only)
4/?
40mm
50cal

These are the modern guns, there are other older guns still around. Plans where to eventualy research 16/45 and 12/50 for 1917+ ships. Note that all mounts are currently twins or singles, the first triples were not going to be introduced untill 1917 with the 12/50 and 9/50 using them.

That build plan looks good, thought I would suggest some medium (6") cruisers and lighter (ie cheaper) destroyers (so you can build more).