Irish Destroyer

[Logi]

Breeze-1, Republic of Ireland Destroyer Leader laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   1,250 t light; 1,314 t standard; 1,436 t normal; 1,533 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   230.00 ft / 230.00 ft x 28.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
   70.10 m / 70.10 m x 8.53 m  x 6.10 m

Armament:
      10 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (5x2 guns), 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      2 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 320 lbs / 145 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16,801 ihp / 12,534 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 3,128nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 219 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   116 - 151

Cost:
   £0.186 million / $0.743 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 40 tons, 2.8 %
   Machinery: 774 tons, 53.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 410 tons, 28.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 186 tons, 13.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 1.7 %
                   - 25t Construction Reserve

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     336 lbs / 152 Kg = 10.5 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.39
   Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 10.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.390
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.21 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.17 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -1.00 ft / -0.30 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Stern:      13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.92 ft / 5.16 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 197.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,944 Square feet or 366 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 158 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 11.78
      - Overall: 0.68
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Note:
Uses Superlong 4"/85 Twin gun
Range is equal, if not a little farer than light cruiser guns.


This destroyer will be a leader of a destroyer squad (4 destroyers) What do you think?

[The Rock Doctor]

She's larger than you can legally build with Irish technology (note the Destroyer/TB tech bit). 

The hull shape - low length to beam ratio and high draught - are really not appropriate for a destroyer. 

A positive bow angle (tilting forward) is more reasonable for a fast ship.

Borys will tell you there's not enough deck space, and he'll be correct.

You'd be better off using turbines than VTE engines.

I have a sense that 4"/85 cal guns would need barrels replaced very regularly - perhaps after (or even during) each engagement.  It implies very high muzzle velocity.

[The Rock Doctor]

...and I realize that all sounds really negative, but don't take it that way.  Nobody produces awesome SS designs right away.  I'll look forward to seeing the next iteration soon...

[Korpen]

Borys will tell you there's not enough deck space, and he'll be correct.

Not per se, as the guns are twins. But to use twins Ireland would need the 1910 cruiser tech (and a year to develop the mounts), but atm have no cruiser tech at all.

[Korpen]

Like the Doctor said, do not be put of if and when you first few designs get sawn of at the ankels, it have happend to every single new players so far.  ;)

[Guinness]

You can also always order such a ship from a nation that does have 1912 engine tech and the cruiser tech that allows twin gun mounts. For a nation such as Ireland with limited shipbuilding resources, even paying a premium for overseas construction, I suspect that there might be more bang for the buck in importing.

Also, remember that DDs cost $1.5  per 1000 tons of displacement, but cruisers (ie, ships built to 1.0 composite strength as opposed to those built to 0.5 cross sectional strength) only cost $1 per 1000 tons displacement.

So a hypothetical 1250 ton DD leader would cost $1.875, but a 2000t Cruiser would only cost $2. Food for thought.

[Logi]

I understand that, that's why I posted asked for your opinions. I forgot about that, so I'll change them to singles.

Breeze-1, Republic of Ireland Destroyer Leader laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 803 t standard; 912 t normal; 999 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   231.01 ft / 216.00 ft x 25.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   70.41 m / 65.84 m x 7.62 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
     5 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft
     Main guns limited to end-on fire
     2 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 313 lbs / 142 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17,000 shp / 12,682 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 3,810nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 196 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   82 - 107

Cost:
   £0.121 million / $0.482 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 39 tons, 4.3 %
   Machinery: 439 tons, 48.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 247 tons, 27.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 162 tons, 17.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 2.7 %
                     - 25t Construction Reserve

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     212 lbs / 96 Kg = 3.4 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
   Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1.02
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.51

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.591
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.64 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.70 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 75 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -1.00 ft / -0.30 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Stern:      13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.43 ft / 5.31 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 192.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,917 Square feet or 364 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 45 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 102 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.36
      - Longitudinal: 10.63
      - Overall: 0.50
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Note:
Uses Superlong 5"/55 Twin gun
Range is equal to light cruiser guns


Muzzle velocity of 5"/45 is 2.16 m/sec, so a bit higher (maybe 3.1 m/sec?)
A 5.9"/45 gun's muzzle velocity is 3.04 m/sec
A 11"/52 Heavy Gun's muzzle velocity is 17.52 m/sec
Don't ask me why the range is the same when muzzle velocity is lower, I'm just basing the gun on German long-range naval guns.

Is this design better? Do I need to have cross-sectional strength 0.5? And I'm designing my starting navy so I can't really import a ship. I'll consider a cruiser.

[The Rock Doctor]

The cross-sectional strength does need to be 0.5 or better - lowering the freeboard would be the best way to do this.

Check the New Zion destroyer thread - Foxy has just posted something broadly similar.

[Desertfox]

Note, L:B, Block Coefficient, and Freeboard.


Lavi II class, New Zion Destroyer laid down 1912

Displacement:
   750 t light; 820 t standard; 882 t normal; 932 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   330.00 ft / 330.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 7.70 ft (normal load)
   100.58 m / 100.58 m x 9.14 m  x 2.35 m

Armament:
      3 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
      2 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 336 lbs / 152 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 17,456 shp / 13,022 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 1,300nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 112 tons

Complement:
   80 - 105

Cost:
   £0.116 million / $0.463 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 42 tons, 4.8 %
   Armour: 4 tons, 0.5 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 4 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 386 tons, 43.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 248 tons, 28.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 132 tons, 14.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 70 tons, 7.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     190 lbs / 86 Kg = 3.0 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 12.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.80

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.405
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.17 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 88
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Mid (40 %):      13.00 ft / 3.96 m (7.50 ft / 2.29 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7.50 ft / 2.29 m
      - Stern:      7.50 ft / 2.29 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.10 ft / 3.08 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 189.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 96.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 6,112 Square feet or 568 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 128 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.69
      - Overall: 0.52
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Misc:
50t mines
10t wireless
6t torpedoes
2t minesweeping equipment
2t hydrophones (bought from NS)

[Tanthalas]

Armament:
     5 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1907 Model
    Breech loading guns in deck mounts
    on centreline ends, majority forward
    Main guns limited to end-on fire This is bad (trust me)
     2 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1907 Model
    Machine guns in deck mounts
    on side, all amidships
  Weight of broadside 313 lbs / 142 kg
  Shells per gun, main battery: 200

if you want to get an idea what a DD should look like have a look at the Early Italian ones (used to be some 750 toners in there)

[Logi]

Breeze-1, Republic of Ireland Destroyer Leader laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 803 t standard; 911 t normal; 997 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   229.86 ft / 216.00 ft x 25.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   70.06 m / 65.84 m x 7.62 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
     5 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
     2 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 313 lbs / 142 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 16,982 shp / 12,668 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 1,310nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 194 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   82 - 107

Cost:
   £0.121 million / $0.482 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 39 tons, 4.3 %
   Machinery: 438 tons, 48.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 248 tons, 27.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 161 tons, 17.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 2.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     213 lbs / 97 Kg = 3.4 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 11.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.89
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.94

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.590
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.64 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.70 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 75 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 77
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -1.00 ft / -0.30 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (50 %):      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Stern:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:   13.59 ft / 4.14 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 192.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,914 Square feet or 364 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 45 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 133 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 5.07
      - Overall: 0.63
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Note:
Uses Superlong 5"/55 Twin gun
Range is equal to light cruiser guns

I was trying to fit the ship in a type 0 dock space. Here's a larger version for type 1 docks.

Breeze-2, Republic of Ireland Destroyer Leader laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 803 t standard; 911 t normal; 997 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   388.81 ft / 379.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 7.00 ft (normal load)
   118.51 m / 115.52 m x 9.14 m  x 2.13 m

Armament:
     5 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
     2 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 313 lbs / 142 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,479 shp / 9,310 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 1,450nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 194 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   82 - 107

Cost:
   £0.114 million / $0.458 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 39 tons, 4.3 %
   Machinery: 395 tons, 43.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 291 tons, 31.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 161 tons, 17.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 2.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     314 lbs / 142 Kg = 5.0 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.51
   Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 9.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.35
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.33

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.401
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.63 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.47 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -1.00 ft / -0.30 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Mid (50 %):      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Stern:      8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.30 ft / 3.44 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 176.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 177.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,001 Square feet or 650 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 58 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 124 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.73
      - Overall: 0.52
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Note:
Uses Superlong 5"/55 Twin gun
Range is equal to light cruiser guns

Tanhthalas, i can't seem to find the italian designs, if you know where they are, could you direct me to it?

[Tanthalas]

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1369.0

the 758 ton at the top of the page (we mesure light or least we used to ^.^ ) that was one of my first ships keep in mind when looking at it that it was only intended for med use (so some tradeoffs were ok imho)

[Desertfox]

Forget about trying to fit her into a Type 0 slip, you have plenty of bigger slips to not have to worry about that. The second one is much better but is too long. Try to get the Length to Beam Ratio around 11:1. Also don't forget to add torpedoes.