Bavarian Cruiser

[Kaiser Kirk]

My predecessor had  2 squadrons of 27kt TBs lead by 24.5kt small cruisers. I was thinking of fielding a 3rd squadron of TBs in 1912-13, lead by a new small cruiser of 26-27kts. 

After tinkering, I wound up with something a little different with a rather uncruiserlike BC which impairs speed- a flaw.
I am terrible at ship drawing, so I'll explain the layout. It's similar to Bazhell's cruisers, with a bonus of casements.  A B X Y guns, B & X superimposed (got that HY1,1911),  4 more guns on each side. Then 4 casements each side, all and all giving a 12 gun broadside and 8 fore/aft should conflict come.  Had to raise the design freeboard to get rid of the light sea warning on the casements.

Now, to protect against opposing TB/DD/CL fire, the sides are armored from below the waterline to the freeboard- rather unusual, but I am thinking it might be appealing if one is expecting lots of small shells flying around, and which should make her a pain in small unit skirmishes...unless she gets torpedoed.

Kliene PanzerKruiser, Bavaria TB Leader laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   4,250 t light; 4,467 t standard; 4,853 t normal; 5,162 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   416.67 ft / 413.39 ft x 45.93 ft x 15.58 ft (normal load)
   127.00 m / 126.00 m x 14.00 m  x 4.75 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 719 lbs / 326 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   344.49 ft / 105.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   2.95" / 75 mm   344.49 ft / 105.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 128 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -
   3rd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -
   5th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2.95" / 75 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 28,407 shp / 21,192 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 3,080nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 695 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   289 - 377

Cost:
   £0.423 million / $1.692 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 90 tons, 1.9 %
   Armour: 1,152 tons, 23.7 %
      - Belts: 811 tons, 16.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 76 tons, 1.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 247 tons, 5.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 18 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,420 tons, 29.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,537 tons, 31.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 603 tons, 12.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4,369 lbs / 1,982 Kg = 123.7 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
   Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 12.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.17
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.574
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.33 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -15.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.41 ft / 7.44 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Stern:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.04 ft / 5.20 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 121.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 13,553 Square feet or 1,259 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 67 lbs/sq ft or 329 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.90
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


The idea is that the sides of the ship are completely armored from freeboard to -1m under WL. Just below the freeboard there are 4 casements/ side, while on deck there are 4 mounts each side, and an additional 4 on the centerline. Giving a theoretical broadside of 12 x 105mm, and 8 bearing ahead/astern.

To deal with the relative lack of scuttles, large blowers (10t) are installed to maintain airflow.  A marconi device is also included (25t). As are 4 torpedoes (4 tons). Leaving 11 ton 'spare'.

[Guinness]

Wow, that is a lot of 105mm guns. Does Bavaria have something bigger, like maybe a 120mm? On a ship this size, I think maybe that would make a little more sense. Somewhere around 12 or 14 120mm instead maybe? (just guessing)

My concerns with this ship would be:

1. NEDS
2. What happens when she bumps into a similarly sized, but armed with heavier guns ship? The 2.95" belt would likely hold up against a 120mm armed opponent, but wouldn't work as well against 150mm guns and bigger, or even against the CSA's numerous 5.5" guns ;-)

I understand that you see this as a leader, which is a fine idea, but at 4250 tons, she's really a good sized light cruiser, so it seems to me at least that she ought to be able to take on other light cruisers. Just tweaking the main armament and armor might get that for you, as well as a capable DD leader.

[P3D]

3" armor is OK against 6" at larger distance.

[Guinness]

Probably true, but armed with 105mm guns, I'd expect that (barring the torpedo threat from attendant DDs) a 6" opponent could probably close the range with some impunity until the bigger guns could start doing some damage.

The more I think about it though, the more I'm starting to like this idea though. Assuming it's an answer to Bavaria's particular requirements, it would probably work just fine. Cruising around with destroyers, the bigger threat is probably torpedoes anyway. Maybe lose a few 105's for a small number of larger guns, just to give her a little more punch in case she does run into something bigger than a destroyer?

[Kaiser Kirk]

Wow, that is a lot of 105mm guns. Does Bavaria have something bigger, like maybe a 120mm?

Um, I don't know. I really haven't figured out the gun making rules as of yet.  I've been using Bazhells fleet as a guide, he ran 105mm and 88mm, I added 47mm revolver cannon and MGs.  I was going to worry about developing a 150mm for a "real" cruiser later.  Using 105mm keeps it the same as the other two cruisers, and should make an impression on most unarmored light combatants.  The casements allowed that number of guns to be shipped without deckspace issues causing laughter.

What is NEDS?  Novel Explosive Delicious Sandwhich?

[Guinness]

Sorry, I've already been here long enough to pick up the shorthand...

NEDS is Borysese for Not Enough Deck Space, an issue you tried to address with your blowers and casemates.

[Guinness]

Thinking about it some more, I don't think deck space is the big issue. But what about ammunition supply?

[Borys]

Actually, armouring the whole freeboard amidships is a Habsburg practice, so - considering where the roots of the Bavarian yards are - it is quite logical.

I just scrapped a class of ships with such a feature.

There were some designs with "farms" of 6" or 4" guns in the RN - check out this site:
http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/

She would be better with a a single (or pair of side-by-side) 6" guns on each end. But I suggest keeping her as she is - shows the learnign curve and the zig-zag taken by ship evolution.

Ammo supply should not be a problem, if you mark the centerline ends guns as mount&hoist. From  there more ammunition brought up from below could be distributed to the beam guns.

Borys

[Kaiser Kirk]

Easy to swap to mount and hoists for the guns up top. Casements usually had there own system.

I will think on the 150mm issue. Though Borys observation on design evolution is pretty much what I had in mind. Hadn't noted that the Habsburgs were doing the armored wall thing though.

[maddox]

Most  French warships, even the smaller ones, carry the heavy shelled quick firing 140mm gun.

So if you want armor against that, you'll need at least 3.5-4" armor, if the fighting closes up to 105mm range. And that's close to torpedo range.

[Borys]

Hadn't noted that the Habsburgs were doing the armored wall thing though.

On Battleships and Armoured Cruisers.
No longer on Belted Cruisers.

Borys

[Kaiser Kirk]

Thanks for the comments. The vessels I had looked at for comparison were the Italian DDs. I think the ship is a reasonable, if slightly odd, design against them, as well as the Habsburg and Italian CLs <1910.

However the newest cruisers would overmatch them, the Habsburg Maria Theresie is more of an improved Bristol than a Madgeburg, while the 1909 Italian SC is bigger, faster and far more heavily armed.

So I think I will wait on any more cruisers until I have developed some better guns and perhaps fire control systems.

[Borys]

A planned Habsburg cruiser. I noticed my previous version of it had AoN (sort of).
I corrected it and the ship grew to 11,000.

Barbettes are thin, as the UP extends to weather deck (Habsburg style :)).

If a shells strikes ABOVE the UB, it will be at long range, and thus at higher obliquity.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1915 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   11 010 t light; 11 491 t standard; 12 785 t normal; 13 821 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   590,00 ft / 590,00 ft x 67,00 ft x 20,00 ft (normal load)
   179,83 m / 179,83 m x 20,42 m  x 6,10 m

Armament:
      6 - 9,00" / 229 mm guns (3x2 guns), 371,00lbs / 168,28kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 9,00" / 229 mm guns (1x2 guns), 371,00lbs / 168,28kg shells, 1915 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      8 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 1,25" / 31,8 mm guns in single mounts, 0,98lbs / 0,44kg shells, 1915 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 3 226 lbs / 1 463 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4,00" / 102 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   190,00 ft / 57,91 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Upper:   2,50" / 64 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 104% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,00" / 127 mm   2,00" / 51 mm      3,00" / 76 mm
   2nd:   5,00" / 127 mm   2,00" / 51 mm      4,25" / 108 mm
   3rd:   1,00" / 25 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4,00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 69 604 shp / 51 924 Kw = 29,00 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 330 tons (50% coal)

Complement:
   600 - 781

Cost:
   £1,637 million / $6,549 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 397 tons, 3,1%
   Armour: 2 615 tons, 20,5%
      - Belts: 1 620 tons, 12,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 429 tons, 3,4%
      - Armour Deck: 518 tons, 4,1%
      - Conning Tower: 47 tons, 0,4%
   Machinery: 2 907 tons, 22,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 841 tons, 37,9%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 775 tons, 13,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12 839 lbs / 5 824 Kg = 35,2 x 9,0 " / 229 mm shells or 1,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
   Metacentric height 3,4 ft / 1,0 m
   Roll period: 15,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,566
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,81 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,29 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,00 ft / 9,14 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   24,00 ft / 7,32 m
      - Mid (28%):      24,00 ft / 7,32 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,72 ft / 5,71 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151,0%
   Waterplane Area: 28 005 Square feet or 2 602 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 117 lbs/sq ft or 572 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,16
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Kaiser Kirk]

Interesting design, somewhat of a small BC, and should be death on CLs.  The armor all the way up would make the Bavarians imitators, but it makes sense to adopt elements from your neighborhood designs.