Kingdom tiny ships

[Korpen]

Two designs on the same hull, one tiny gunboat, and one tiny torpedoboot. They are small, no great seaboat and horrible to live on. On the other hand the areas were ships such as this would be used are either around the Indonesian archipelago, off the Dutch coast or in the Baltic Sea. So missions longer then 24h are not expected with the exception of transits.

Range for both ships is about 150nm at top speed.

Typ 1913, Netherlands Kannonboot laid down 1912



Displacement:
   250 t light; 258 t standard; 282 t normal; 301 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   216,53 ft / 212,27 ft x 19,69 ft x 5,91 ft (normal load)
   66,00 m / 64,70 m x 6,00 m  x 1,80 m

Armament:
      2 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm guns in single mounts, 19,84lbs / 9,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
   Weight of broadside 40 lbs / 18 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,04" / 1 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8 500 shp / 6 341 Kw = 28,37 kts
   Range 1 700nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 44 tons

Complement:
   33 - 44

Cost:
   £0,034 million / $0,135 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 5 tons, 1,8 %
   Armour: 0 tons, 0,1 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0,1 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 148 tons, 52,5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 94 tons, 33,2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 32 tons, 11,4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 3 tons, 1,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     80 lbs / 36 Kg = 3,9 x 3,5 " / 88 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,30
   Metacentric height 0,7 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 9,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,17
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,84

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14,57 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Forecastle (22 %):   12,14 ft / 3,70 m (11,48 ft / 3,50 m aft of break)
      - Mid (35 %):      7,22 ft / 2,20 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7,22 ft / 2,20 m
      - Stern:      7,22 ft / 2,20 m
      - Average freeboard:   8,66 ft / 2,64 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 184,2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 60,3 %
   Waterplane Area: 2 572 Square feet or 239 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 39 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 19 lbs/sq ft or 91 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,86
      - Overall: 0,57
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

Typ 1913, Netherlands Torpedoboot laid down 1912



Displacement:
   250 t light; 257 t standard; 282 t normal; 302 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   216,53 ft / 212,27 ft x 19,69 ft x 5,91 ft (normal load)
   66,00 m / 64,70 m x 6,00 m  x 1,80 m

Armament:
      1 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm guns in single mounts, 19,84lbs / 9,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
   Weight of broadside 20 lbs / 9 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8 500 shp / 6 341 Kw = 28,37 kts
   Range 1 740nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 45 tons

Complement:
   33 - 44

Cost:
   £0,032 million / $0,129 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 tons, 0,9 %
   Armour: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 151 tons, 53,7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 90 tons, 32,1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 32 tons, 11,2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 6 tons, 2,1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     82 lbs / 37 Kg = 3,9 x 3,5 " / 88 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,30
   Metacentric height 0,7 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 9,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,07
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,84

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14,57 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 69 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Forecastle (22 %):   12,14 ft / 3,70 m (11,48 ft / 3,50 m aft of break)
      - Mid (35 %):      7,22 ft / 2,20 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7,22 ft / 2,20 m
      - Stern:      7,22 ft / 2,20 m
      - Average freeboard:   8,66 ft / 2,64 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 182,4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 60,3 %
   Waterplane Area: 2 572 Square feet or 239 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 40 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 88 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,82
      - Overall: 0,56
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

So do You think they would be worth the investment?

[Borys]

I think they'd be a hit in night atacks on shipping off the Port of London and in the approaches to Hamburg and the Kiel Canal.
You could make them even more shallow drafted - to make full use of the sandbanks off your coast:
http://www.worldwar1atsea.net/Map24NorthSeaSandbanks.htm
Borys

[Sachmle]

I agree w/ Borys. Quite annoying mosquitos. En mass...the torpedo boats would be a real bitch at night.

[Korpen]

Smaller still :)

Type1913 small, Netherlands Tropedoboot laid down 1912

Displacement:
   145 t light; 150 t standard; 160 t normal; 168 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   188,65 ft / 183,73 ft x 15,31 ft x 4,92 ft (normal load)
   57,50 m / 56,00 m x 4,67 m  x 1,50 m

Armament:
      1 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm guns in single mounts, 19,84lbs / 9,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
   Weight of broadside 20 lbs / 9 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   2 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 5 200 shp / 3 879 Kw = 27,08 kts
   Range 1 000nm at 12,00 kts, 100nm at full speed.
   Bunker at max displacement = 19 tons

Complement:
   22 - 29

Cost:
   £0,019 million / $0,077 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 tons, 1,6 %
   Armour: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 85 tons, 53,3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 53 tons, 33,3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 15 tons, 9,2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 4 tons, 2,5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     42 lbs / 19 Kg = 2,0 x 3,5 " / 88 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,23
   Metacentric height 0,4 ft / 0,1 m
   Roll period: 9,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 49 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,16
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,79

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,405
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 13,55 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 23,20 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Forecastle (22 %):   9,84 ft / 3,00 m (8,20 ft / 2,50 m aft of break)
      - Mid (35 %):      5,91 ft / 1,80 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   5,91 ft / 1,80 m
      - Stern:      5,91 ft / 1,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   7,07 ft / 2,15 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 186,5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 60,1 %
   Waterplane Area: 1 736 Square feet or 161 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 36 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 15 lbs/sq ft or 73 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,82
      - Overall: 0,56
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Guinness]

A very interesting concept.

Thinking about it operationally, I'd think you'd need to be able to concentrate at least 10 of these little 145 ton boats at a time, maybe even twenty, but if you could, you could be shooting 40 torpedoes at an enemy at one time, which could be fearsome.

Further still, I suppose you could base these anywhere there is a pier (or maybe even a good beach) you could moor them too, but to get real operational flexibility, add a little tender.

Say you were employing a 20 boat squadron. One tender probably only needs to be big enough to carry a wireless, 800 tons of fuel for the boats (enough to refuel each twice) and maybe 40 reload torpedoes. The squadron could also have a secondary role tending coastal minefields, or even maybe sweeping the occasional mine (though I suspect one would have to remove the torpedoes to don minesweeping gear).

So all of a sudden, you've got a lot of flexible fighting power, even if it can't really cross an ocean. With the CSA's long coastline with lots of inlets, islands, and inland waterways, I could have real use for this. It could be more economical than just building tons and tons of shore defense guns.

So, in short, Thanks! I think I'll steal the concept ;-)

Oh: a question: Let's say you've got a big drydock. Can you build more than one ship in there at at time?

[khymerion]

I like these... very compact and efficient little attack boats.  Love to see a proper tender for them too...  or just the very tiny little ports that could stage them.

[Borys]

The small one is too small.
http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte/ships/torpedoboats/tb1914/index.html
http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte/ships/torpedoboats/tb1915/index.html
http://www.german-navy.de/hochseeflotte/ships/torpedoboats/tb1916/index.html
The CSA already has such a design:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2066.0

[Borys]

Oh: a question: Let's say you've got a big drydock. Can you build more than one ship in there at at time?

I remember a big row over this in the previous incarnation of the game ...
I'd prefer not. And a single Type 0 slip can build one such ships per HY.
Borys

[Guinness]

Ah, good to know.

I think maybe conceptually, these might be closer to German Schnellboots, but using WW1 era tech, and non-planing.

[The Rock Doctor]

I think a tender to such craft would need to provide accomodation for the crew - these are pretty crowded little vessels, and over time, it'll degrade crew ability.

As a point-defence weapon, they might be useful.

[Borys]

Exactly - point defence. Korpen could base 40 in Flanders.
That's why I based my CSA built ships at Kotor and Malta.
Borys

[Guinness]

Here's a first pass at a tender. Enough room to accommodate 500 TB crewman. Based on a 20 boat flotilla, that's not enough for everyone (depending on how big the boats end up being), but it's enough for a big chunk of them, and I figure at least some can sleep on the boats, or some of the boats would be away at any given time. It also has a wireless, 80 reload torpedoes, and 25 tons worth of other random stuff.

CSA Torpedo Boat Tender, CSA Torpedo Boat Tender laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   2,250 t light; 2,316 t standard; 3,167 t normal; 3,848 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   320.00 ft / 320.00 ft x 53.00 ft x 8.17 ft (normal load)
   97.54 m / 97.54 m x 16.15 m  x 2.49 m

Armament:
      1 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
      2 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (1x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mount
     on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 21 lbs / 10 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 1,600 ihp / 1,194 Kw = 12.09 kts
   Range 18,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,533 tons

Complement:
   210 - 274

Cost:
   £0.103 million / $0.413 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 96 tons, 3.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,036 tons, 32.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 917 tons, 28.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,115 tons, 35.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,314 lbs / 3,317 Kg = 341.2 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 13.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.800
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.04 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.89 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 29 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m (8.00 ft / 2.44 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m (8.00 ft / 2.44 m before break)
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.45 ft / 3.19 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 50.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 14,916 Square feet or 1,386 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 238 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 59 lbs/sq ft or 286 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.19
      - Longitudinal: 0.94
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc Weights:

80 t: 80 reload torpedos for squadron
25 t: Consumable stores
10t: Wireless
100t: Accomodations for 500 TB crew

[Borys]

Sorry, but you do not meet the current rules for small tenders:

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=86.msg1338#msg1338

Small fleet tender
They do need miscellaneous weight+fuel of 5kT or more*
They have repair facilities up to protected cruisers.
They also count as temporary lvl 0 ports, regarding small repair works and the ability to support stationed warships, i.e. up to 25 000t total.
A small fleet tender costs $5, additional to the base cost of the ship.

The Misc.Weight + Fuel represent the workshops, shower rooms, stores, etc.

*The fuel is needed for Springsharp, to prevent the Misc.Weight from turning the ship over.

Borys

[Korpen]

The small one is too small.

Not at all. Just using the german ships give you too small a sample.
If one compares her to the IRL French Cyclone Class it is larger, slower and carries fewer torpedoes.
Granted this one carries a bigger gun, but on the other hand she got turbines and is ten years more modern.

The CSA already has such a design:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2066.0

Which is slightly less capabel then the versions posted here. ;)
Also, not as good looking.  8)

Ah, good to know.

I think maybe conceptually, these might be closer to German Schnellboots, but using WW1 era tech, and non-planing.

Pretty much spot on, none of these classes are intended for massed attacks as sea. They are more intended for close protection of the cost, and costal shipping. As well as for raiding and attacking enemy costal shipping in areas were larger ships are unsuited to operate.

As a side note the German S-boots were not planning ships either.  ;)

[Borys]

Which is slightly less capabel then the versions posted here. ;)

Several years difference, and coal versus oil firing ...

Also, not as good looking.  8)

Awww ...

Borys