Kingdom tiny ships

[Korpen]

Fiddled some more. Lost 0,3 kts and increased draught by 20cm. In return increased range 60%.


1913 Mini II, Netherlands Torpedoboot laid down 1912

Displacement:
   250 t light; 258 t standard; 298 t normal; 330 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   216,60 ft / 209,97 ft x 17,72 ft x 6,56 ft (normal load)
   66,02 m / 64,00 m x 5,40 m  x 2,00 m

Armament:
      2 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm guns in single mounts, 19,84lbs / 9,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 40 lbs / 18 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   2 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8 500 shp / 6 341 Kw = 28,08 kts
   Range 2 750nm at 12,00 kts, 250nm at 28,08 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 72 tons

Complement:
   35 - 46

Cost:
   £0,035 million / $0,139 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 5 tons, 1,7 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 0,2 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 0,2 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 155 tons, 52,1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 86 tons, 28,8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 48 tons, 16,1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 3 tons, 0,9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     75 lbs / 34 Kg = 3,6 x 3,5 " / 88 mm shells or 0,1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,26
   Metacentric height 0,6 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 9,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,21
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,83

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,427
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,85 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14,49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 73
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   11,48 ft / 3,50 m (10,50 ft / 3,20 m aft of break)
      - Mid (30 %):      7,22 ft / 2,20 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   6,89 ft / 2,10 m
      - Stern:      6,89 ft / 2,10 m
      - Average freeboard:   8,10 ft / 2,47 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 182,2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 68,5 %
   Waterplane Area: 2 331 Square feet or 217 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 41 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 86 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,73
      - Overall: 0,56
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Guinness]

I could have sworn there were planing S-Boats, but oh well. Yet another thing I need to learn more about...

So I re-did the tender under the tender rules that Borys quoted. It came out a lot bigger (and maybe more importantly, deeper) than I'd hoped. Truthfully, I think this ship is overkill for the mission, especially since it doesn't need to be all that seaworthy either, but I suppose if it gets me a general purpose tender design, then so be it. I still think the job could get done on half the ship, say no more than 1800 light.

CSA Torpedo Boat Tender, CSA Torpedo Boat Tender laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   3,600 t light; 3,737 t standard; 6,737 t normal; 9,137 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   315.00 ft / 315.00 ft x 60.00 ft x 14.68 ft (normal load)
   96.01 m / 96.01 m x 18.29 m  x 4.47 m

Armament:
      1 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft
      2 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (1x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mount
     on centreline forward
   Weight of broadside 21 lbs / 10 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 1,900 ihp / 1,418 Kw = 11.39 kts
   Range 44,590nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,400 tons

Complement:
   371 - 483

Cost:
   £0.158 million / $0.630 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 114 tons, 1.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,483 tons, 22.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,137 tons, 46.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 2,000 tons, 29.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19,966 lbs / 9,057 Kg = 931.4 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 4.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
   Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 12.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise aft of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.850
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 33 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
      - Mid (70 %):      10.00 ft / 3.05 m (24.00 ft / 7.32 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Stern:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.30 ft / 4.97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 39.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,421 Square feet or 1,618 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 299 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 64 lbs/sq ft or 314 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.81
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc Weights:

120 t: 80 reload torpedoes for squadron
25t: Wireless
1000t: Accommodations for 500 TB crew
855t: Misc. Stores, workshops, spare parts, etc. etc.

[Borys]

I pulled off a small tender at 3000 tonnes light:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=271.msg2246#msg2246

ADDED LATER: your design is better.

Borys

[Guinness]

Thanks Borys. Tinkering around (I'm avoiding work I really should be doing), I also cooked up an oiler on the same hull that can carry 5000t of oil on 1750 tons (light), so maybe the 3600t Tender is a worthwhile design, especially if I can get 2 or 3 different future ships type out of it.

[The Rock Doctor]

The freeboard's on the low side for a tender, I think.  I generally build them along the lines as passenger ships - high freeboard to reflect the need for all those living quarters in addition to the crew's.

The generic tender rules kinda work and kinda don't.  Not sure what to make of them at this point.

[Borys]

6$ for generic "little one", and 15$ for the "Big One"?
Borys

[Guinness]

The freeboard's on the low side for a tender, I think.  I generally build them along the lines as passenger ships - high freeboard to reflect the need for all those living quarters in addition to the crew's.

The generic tender rules kinda work and kinda don't.  Not sure what to make of them at this point.

Well, except for the working deck, It has one tall deck below the waterline (above a double bottom, etc.), and 3 decks above the waterline.

Or maybe more to the point, if I try to work out the deck area available, I come up with around 16,000 square feet. I'm not sure what a reasonable number of square feet per person living aboard is, but I have a sense that might be enough. Still revising the Freeboard to move the mid break forward 10% gives me almost 3000 sf more. I'd be happy to have her be pretty much a flush decker, but I fear that it would be hard to do the non-accommodations type work that way.

Maybe it just makes more sense to build a dedicated tender with no accommodations, and a barge for the men to live on to go with it? Remember, the idea here is for in-shore or close to shore operations.

[ledeper]

A Baltic Bid:

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1913

Displacement:
   309 t light; 318 t standard; 350 t normal; 375 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   210,66 ft / 208,33 ft x 18,04 ft x 4,92 ft (normal load)
   64,21 m / 63,50 m x 5,50 m  x 1,50 m

Armament:
      1 - 3,94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 30,51lbs / 13,84kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
   Weight of broadside 31 lbs / 14 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   2 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8.240 shp / 6.147 Kw = 26,25 kts
   Range 3.000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 57 tons

Complement:
   39 - 52

Cost:
   £0,043 million / $0,171 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 4 tons, 1,1 %
   Machinery: 180 tons, 51,3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 120 tons, 34,4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 41 tons, 11,8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 5 tons, 1,4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     137 lbs / 62 Kg = 4,5 x 3,9 " / 100 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,25
   Metacentric height 0,6 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 10,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,20
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,08

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,662
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,55 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14,43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 71 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      13,22 ft / 4,03 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   10,50 ft / 3,20 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10,50 ft / 3,20 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10,50 ft / 3,20 m
      - Stern:      10,50 ft / 3,20 m
      - Average freeboard:   10,72 ft / 3,27 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 175,7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109,1 %
   Waterplane Area: 2.912 Square feet or 271 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 51 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 87 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 3,88
      - Overall: 0,62
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

a little on the slow side ,but only 1,5m draft

[Borys]

Nice. But IMO the 4" is much to much a vessel that size. Maybe 1x2" and add another twin torpedo tube?
In the little islands - "skeren"? such ships could spring ambushes ...
Borys

[ledeper]

Like this?
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1913

Displacement:
   311 t light; 318 t standard; 350 t normal; 375 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   210,66 ft / 208,33 ft x 18,04 ft x 4,92 ft (normal load)
   64,21 m / 63,50 m x 5,50 m  x 1,50 m

Armament:
      2 - 1,97" / 50,0 mm guns in single mounts, 3,81lbs / 1,73kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 8 lbs / 3 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8.587 shp / 6.406 Kw = 26,50 kts
   Range 3.000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 57 tons

Complement:
   39 - 52

Cost:
   £0,041 million / $0,165 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 tons, 0,3 %
   Machinery: 186 tons, 53,2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 118 tons, 33,9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 39 tons, 11,2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 5 tons, 1,4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     136 lbs / 62 Kg = 35,7 x 2,0 " / 50 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,24
   Metacentric height 0,6 ft / 0,2 m
   Roll period: 10,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,05
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,662
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11,55 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14,43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 71 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      13,22 ft / 4,03 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   10,50 ft / 3,20 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10,50 ft / 3,20 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10,50 ft / 3,20 m
      - Stern:      10,50 ft / 3,20 m
      - Average freeboard:   10,72 ft / 3,27 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 175,5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 68,9 %
   Waterplane Area: 2.912 Square feet or 270 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 51 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 86 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 3,82
      - Overall: 0,62
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

[Korpen]

   Block coefficient: 0,662
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 71 %

That is a really high block coefficient, especially for a high speed ship.

I think the 5cm guns are pretty useless against anything of equal size or larger. The 10cm or 75-88mm guns give much petter punch at much longer range.

[Borys]

Quite good.
What would be the range at max speed?
These are sortie ships - either from base or from hiding place in the little islands off Swedens coast - they will steam at full speed, attack, run at full speed.

What longer ranges are possible when shooting from a 350 tonnes boat going at 25 knots? And zig-zaging?
They won't be able to hit a battleship at 4000 metres. And at such a range they'll be launching their fish and turning tail anyway.

In a shootout with out such small fry - two guns of 3" is pushing it - a pom-pom would be best, frankly. 

I agree on trying to squeeze more speed out of them.
Borys

[Guinness]

For the mission, I like the idea of a reasonably large gun aft, to deal with tail on pursuit after the fish are fired. Maybe just a large machine gun forward for other eventualities. That's about it for the artillery though.

[ledeper]

The range at max speed is around 225 Nm and at least in Baltic Navy they could operate together with my small coastal mine layers/sweepers.and concerning a bigger gun ,the first draft is with a 100mm gun and range at top speed about 200Nm,and
Block coefficient will be lower with a increased draft from 1,5 m to 1,75m (0,549)

[Korpen]

Quite good.
What would be the range at max speed?
These are sortie ships - either from base or from hiding place in the little islands off Swedens coast - they will steam at full speed, attack, run at full speed.

What longer ranges are possible when shooting from a 350 tonnes boat going at 25 knots? And zig-zaging?
They won't be able to hit a battleship at 4000 metres. And at such a range they'll be launching their fish and turning tail anyway.

For the mission, I like the idea of a reasonably large gun aft, to deal with tail on pursuit after the fish are fired. Maybe just a large machine gun forward for other eventualities. That's about it for the artillery though.

Think some of the disagreements here come from different views on what small ships should do in this scenario. Both of you seem to work under the assumption that torpedo attack on capital ships is the only (or at least main) thing.
But take a look at the Russian Baltic fleet, 7 capital ships and more then 110 destroyers, gunboats and heavily armed mine layers and sweepers. So most missions would be skirmishers with opposing light costal forces, and for that some real firepower is needed or the ships will never survive to attack major vessels.
Similar situation for the Netherlands vs. the UNK.