Iberian TBD of the Future (1914)

[miketr]

Over all this is just me killing some time...  As I have nothing to design till then anyways.  Also the DD size is getting so big that building them in useful numbers will become a bit of a problem for Iberia.  I like to build DD's in 10 ship lots so that would be 15 BP a massive amount of my total BP budget for the year.

I think it might be too slow so I am going to try another design to see what the max speed I an get out of the hull.   

Any thoughts while we wait for the next round of blood sheed?

TBD-1914, Iberia Torpedo Boat Destroyer laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   1,500 t light; 1,557 t standard; 1,777 t normal; 1,954 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 32.81 ft x 12.04 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 10.00 m  x 3.67 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 0.49" / 12.5 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1914 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 149 lbs / 68 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 32,000 shp / 23,872 Kw = 32.01 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 397 tons (50% coal)

Complement:
   136 - 177

Cost:
   £0.261 million / $1.042 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 19 tons, 1.0 %
   Armour: 11 tons, 0.6 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 11 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 975 tons, 54.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 429 tons, 24.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 278 tons, 15.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 66 tons, 3.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     426 lbs / 193 Kg = 12.1 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.54
   Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 9.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.12
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   13.94 ft / 4.25 m
      - Mid (50 %):      12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Stern:      12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.94 ft / 3.95 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 189.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,951 Square feet or 739 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 61 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 141 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.98
      - Overall: 0.53
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Short range radio 10 tons, DD FC 25 tons, Six 20" torpedos (2x3) 6 tons and 25 tons construction reserve

A slightly faster design...

TBD-1914, Iberia Torpedo Boat Destroyer laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   1,500 t light; 1,556 t standard; 1,745 t normal; 1,895 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 32.81 ft x 11.82 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 10.00 m  x 3.60 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 0.49" / 12.5 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1914 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 149 lbs / 68 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 35,862 shp / 26,753 Kw = 33.00 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 339 tons

Complement:
   134 - 175

Cost:
   £0.263 million / $1.054 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 19 tons, 1.1 %
   Armour: 11 tons, 0.6 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 11 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 992 tons, 56.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 438 tons, 25.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 244 tons, 14.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 41 tons, 2.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     405 lbs / 184 Kg = 11.5 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.53
   Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 9.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.12
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   13.94 ft / 4.25 m
      - Mid (50 %):      12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Stern:      12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.94 ft / 3.95 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 194.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,951 Square feet or 739 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 57 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs/sq ft or 145 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.01
      - Overall: 0.54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Short range radio 10 tons, DD FC 25 tons, Six 20" torpedos (2x3) 6 tons and 0 tons construction reserve

[The Rock Doctor]

Both are good, but the second is better.

*resumes bloodshed*

[miketr]

Since Korpen is working on some small ships I decided to update my 1909 TB design.  Hull is a little longer, deleted the 2 50mm's and replaced them with 1 75mm for a total of 2 75's.  Switched to tripple torpedo mount.

The updated engines allow for a much longer range than the 1909 design.  160nm @ 27 knots.

If I were to ditch the coal fired range would go to 3,500 nm @ 10 knots & 240nm @ 27 knots.

Michael

TB-1914-S 325, Iberia Torpedo Boat laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   325 t light; 337 t standard; 373 t normal; 401 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   225.00 ft / 225.00 ft x 20.00 ft x 7.25 ft (normal load)
   68.58 m / 68.58 m x 6.10 m  x 2.21 m

Armament:
      2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1914 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 26 lbs / 12 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 300
   3 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,895 shp / 5,889 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 160nm at 27.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 64 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   42 - 55

Cost:
   £0.052 million / $0.208 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 tons, 0.9 %
   Armour: 3 tons, 0.8 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 3 tons, 0.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 191 tons, 51.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 116 tons, 31.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 47 tons, 12.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 13 tons, 3.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     119 lbs / 54 Kg = 9.3 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
   Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 10.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.12
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   9.75 ft / 2.97 m
      - Mid (50 %):      9.75 ft / 2.97 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9.35 ft / 2.85 m
      - Stern:      9.35 ft / 2.85 m
      - Average freeboard:   9.64 ft / 2.94 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 176.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 70.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,770 Square feet or 257 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 51 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 19 lbs/sq ft or 93 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 2.34
      - Overall: 0.58
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Short range radio 10 tons and three 20" torpedos (1x3) 3 tons

[miketr]

A question?  Is it within the rules to use mount and hoist and or twin mounts on a DD hull with current tech?

TBD-1914-c, Iberia Torpedo Boat Destroyer laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   1,499 t light; 1,555 t standard; 1,744 t normal; 1,894 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.70 ft / 393.70 ft x 32.81 ft x 11.81 ft (normal load)
   120.00 m / 120.00 m x 10.00 m  x 3.60 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1914 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 149 lbs / 68 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   9 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 33,653 shp / 25,105 Kw = 32.50 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 339 tons

Complement:
   134 - 175

Cost:
   £0.258 million / $1.034 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 19 tons, 1.1 %
   Armour: 11 tons, 0.6 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 11 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 964 tons, 55.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 452 tons, 25.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 244 tons, 14.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 54 tons, 3.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     395 lbs / 179 Kg = 11.2 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
   Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 10.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.26
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.10

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   13.94 ft / 4.25 m
      - Mid (50 %):      12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Stern:      12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.94 ft / 3.95 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 190.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,951 Square feet or 739 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 60 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 149 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.97
      - Overall: 0.53
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Short range radio 10 tons, DD FC 25 tons, nine 20" torpedos (3x3) 9 tons and 10 tons construction reserve

[Tanthalas]

I htink it must be ok to do so (noone complaind that my 1500 toners used twin mount and hoists)

[The Rock Doctor]

It's strictly a matter of discretion.  I've been told they weren't used historically around this time, so I've skipped them lately - but may revert back to using them once I start with 1,500 t boats.

[Guinness]

* "hoists" here means powered hoists, not necessarily hand-powered dredger type hoists, which may well have been in use for parts of ammunition paths.

As I understand it, hoists on DDs were a function of the weight of complete rounds and how far they had to be passed. Or in other words, they hadn't even occurred to anyone until the Brits superimposed 4.7" guns.

To give you an idea (using navweaps data), the complete round for the 4.7" mounted on the V&W's and Shakespeares weighed 50 lbs. for the round, plus almost 12 for the powder (bagged in this case). Heavy but still hand-passable. By the 4.7" in the 1920's A class and beyond, the round was still 50 lbs., but the brass powder cartridge weighed 30 lbs.

For comparison, a 4" British round was a fixed round, and weighed less than 50 lbs. total.

So, I really don't think hoists are appropriate until our DDs start mounting heavier guns.

It seems, doing some googling, that Borys has already asked this question in some places, and gotten a similar answer.

So to me for our purposes, a good rule of thumb would be to consider the vertical distance a round must travel in your design, and the weight of the round. So for mike's 1500 toner, I suspect that hoists are less likely to be appropriate for that 105mm weapon. For open backed twin mountings (which is likely what one would expect in our era if a twin is mounted on a DD), I also think hoists unlikely, since one reason for a twin is to not superimpose singles. For a closed twin (probably unlikely for a DD in this era), hoists are probably a lot more likely, if only for convenience.

Now once we embark on dual-purpose DD armament, hoists will likely be the rule.