Some Bavarian Vessels

Kaiser Kirk · August 19, 2008, 01:28:47 AM

Between 1908 and 1913, the Bavarian navy was fairly quiet, with a modest need for new vessels.

First off, the Bavarians have a need for training vessel, in this case a sail training vessel with some auxiliary engines. A handful of machine guns, hotchkiss revolving cannon, and a pair of deck guns allow for gunnery practice. The design is quite close to that of a OTL Rumanian sailing vessel.

Second, a depot ship, to allow overnight training, or recovery of a breakdown in the Adriatic. Mostly, I expect the Bavarians live in their barracks, and use the cafeteria at this stage.

Last, there is a need for minesweeping ability of inshore areas. So a small minesweeper.

Names are until I come up with better.

Quote
Minerva, Bavaria Sail training ship laid down 1909

Displacement:
   1,700 t light; 1,751 t standard; 1,809 t normal; 1,856 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   267.83 ft / 239.50 ft x 39.80 ft x 14.60 ft (normal load)
   81.63 m / 73.00 m x 12.13 m x 4.45 m

Armament:
2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
4 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 83 lbs / 38 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 300

Armour:
- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.31" / 8 mm     -           -
   2nd:   0.31" / 8 mm     -           -
   3rd:   0.31" / 8 mm     -           -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 416 ihp / 311 Kw = 9.45 kts
   Range 2,500nm at 7.25 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 105 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   138 - 180

Cost:
   £0.073 million / $0.291 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 10 tons, 0.6 %
   Armour: 3 tons, 0.1 %
     - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
     - Armament: 3 tons, 0.1 %
     - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
     - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 32 tons, 1.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,005 tons, 55.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 109 tons, 6.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 650 tons, 35.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,598 lbs / 1,632 Kg = 101.9 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03
   Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 14.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.04
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.92

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.455
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.02 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.48 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 23 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 27
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 59.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      17.02 ft / 5.19 m
     - Forecastle (20 %):   10.83 ft / 3.30 m
     - Mid (50 %):      10.83 ft / 3.30 m
     - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.83 ft / 3.30 m
     - Stern:      10.83 ft / 3.30 m
     - Average freeboard:   11.33 ft / 3.45 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 50.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 87.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,822 Square feet or 541 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 226 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 105 lbs/sq ft or 510 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.92
      - Longitudinal: 5.53
      - Overall: 2.14
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

A Sail Training ship for the nascent Bavarian Navy.

She is equipped with an auxilary VTE engine capable of driving her at 9.5kts and sufficient range to tour the med.

Complement 83 + 140 midshipmen

Description closely based on the Rumanian 1938 Mircea

Quote
Krupp, Bavaria Depot Ship laid down 1909

Displacement:
   1,400 t light; 1,430 t standard; 1,514 t normal; 1,582 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   255.54 ft / 252.00 ft x 37.00 ft x 13.60 ft (normal load)
   77.89 m / 76.81 m x 11.28 m x 4.15 m

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 841 ihp / 627 Kw = 12.00 kts
   Range 2,100nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 152 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   120 - 157

Cost:
   £0.061 million / $0.245 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 88 tons, 5.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 712 tons, 47.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 115 tons, 7.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 600 tons, 39.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,473 lbs / 1,122 Kg = 22.9 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
   Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 14.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 38 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.42

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.418
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.81 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 29 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 20
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      17.65 ft / 5.38 m
     - Forecastle (20 %):   17.65 ft / 5.38 m (9.65 ft / 2.94 m aft of break)
     - Mid (50 %):      9.65 ft / 2.94 m
     - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9.65 ft / 2.94 m
     - Stern:      9.65 ft / 2.94 m
     - Average freeboard:   11.25 ft / 3.43 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 62.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 84.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,502 Square feet or 511 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 195 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 76 lbs/sq ft or 372 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.55
      - Longitudinal: 3.88
      - Overall: 1.70
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Based on Rumanian submarine depot ship. Fitted with Engineering and torpedo shopes, bakery, torpedo loading room, salvage, diving and submarine signalling apparatus

Quote
Vulcan, Bavarian Minewarfare laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   325 t light; 332 t standard; 357 t normal; 377 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   124.69 ft / 114.83 ft x 22.97 ft x 8.20 ft (normal load)
   38.01 m / 35.00 m x 7.00 m x 2.50 m

Armament:
1 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 20.79lbs / 9.43kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline
2 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
2 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1910 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 27 lbs / 12 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 0

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 870 ihp / 649 Kw = 14.00 kts
   Range 2,400nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 45 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   40 - 53

Cost:
   £0.032 million / $0.127 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 125 tons, 35.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 96 tons, 26.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 32 tons, 9.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 28.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     167 lbs / 76 Kg = 8.1 x 3.5 " / 88 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03
   Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 12.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.577
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 10.72 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      15.52 ft / 4.73 m
     - Forecastle (20 %):   15.52 ft / 4.73 m (7.51 ft / 2.29 m aft of break)
     - Mid (50 %):      7.51 ft / 2.29 m
     - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7.51 ft / 2.29 m
     - Stern:      7.51 ft / 2.29 m
     - Average freeboard:   9.11 ft / 2.78 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 150.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 65.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 1,839 Square feet or 171 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 86 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 140 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.85
      - Longitudinal: 6.28
      - Overall: 1.04
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

The Rock Doctor · August 19, 2008, 06:25:00 AM

I like them - my one suggestion would be to trim the minesweeper so that stability increases: she doesn't need to be a steady gun platform, but the stability might be useful if she takes underwater damage from a mine.

Kaiser Kirk · August 19, 2008, 11:58:40 AM

Probably reasonable, I was aiming for a higher seakeeping because she is so small she could use the help, but I'm really envisioning them being restricted to the immediate coastal areas, so thats likely unneeded.

Korpen · August 19, 2008, 12:05:23 PM

Think the minesweeper could use a knot or three more speed. Around 15kts is deal for sweeping with paravanes, but the weight and resistance of the sweeps will cost a knot or two of speed, so 16-17kts minimum for ideal sweaping.

Edit. If a ships is going to spend most of its time pretty close to its maximum speed, turbines would give better economy. Would also be benificial from a training standpoint to minimise the ammout of different types of machinery.

Valles · August 19, 2008, 12:31:10 PM

Shouldn't the stability of the sailing vessel be higher? Springsharp, after all, doesn't model the effects that her sails would have on it, so she seems to have desperately little reserve...

Kaiser Kirk · August 19, 2008, 07:37:30 PM

Responses :

MS speed - I am unsure if the Bavarians would know the optimum speed yet, since they just developed decent paravanes. However I can tinker.

Sailing ship - How to sim that thing was a baffler, which I relied on the OTL vessel for a guide and left all that extra comp hull unallocated. Still I can add some stability.

Engines : With the youth and limited experience of the Bavarian navy, and no merchant marine, I was expecting that engineers familiar with steam turbines might be limited and a rather precious commodity until an academy starts producing them. Not something they would want to allocate to auxiliary vessels. Simple steam engines and VTEs should be a well understood tech with a much expanded recruitment pool.
However, it occurred to me that having a steam turbine on the training ship makes excellent sense.

Ok Revised vessels.

The minesweeper. I modified her hull and trimmed her down. Much higher stability. I have not found a misc weight category for minesweeping/laying equipment yet, so there is 75tons which will hopefully cover paravanes/minerails/and anything else. .

Quote
Vulcan, Bavarian Minewarfare laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   325 t light; 337 t standard; 363 t normal; 383 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   147.84 ft / 137.80 ft x 19.69 ft x 7.38 ft (normal load)
   45.06 m / 42.00 m x 6.00 m x 2.25 m

Armament:
1 - 3.46" / 88.0 mm guns in single mounts, 20.79lbs / 9.43kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
2 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
2 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1910 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 27 lbs / 12 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 300

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 1,762 ihp / 1,315 Kw = 17.00 kts
   Range 2,500nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 46 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   41 - 54

Cost:
   £0.033 million / $0.131 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 3 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 132 tons, 36.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 114 tons, 31.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 38 tons, 10.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 20.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     215 lbs / 98 Kg = 10.4 x 3.5 " / 88 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 11.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.634
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 11.74 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     - Forecastle (20 %):   9.19 ft / 2.80 m
     - Mid (50 %):      9.19 ft / 2.80 m
     - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9.19 ft / 2.80 m
     - Stern:      9.19 ft / 2.80 m
     - Average freeboard:   9.76 ft / 2.98 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 148.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 85.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,014 Square feet or 187 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 27 lbs/sq ft or 132 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.83
      - Longitudinal: 6.76
      - Overall: 1.02
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

And the sailing ship.. revised for more stability

Quote
Minerva, Bavaria Sail training ship laid down 1909

Displacement:
   1,700 t light; 1,752 t standard; 1,824 t normal; 1,882 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   257.40 ft / 229.66 ft x 42.65 ft x 14.44 ft (normal load)
   78.45 m / 70.00 m x 13.00 m x 4.40 m

Armament:
2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
4 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
4 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 83 lbs / 38 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 300

Armour:
- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.31" / 8 mm     -           -
   2nd:   0.31" / 8 mm     -           -
   3rd:   0.31" / 8 mm     -           -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 425 shp / 317 Kw = 9.50 kts
   Range 2,500nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 130 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   139 - 181

Cost:
   £0.071 million / $0.285 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 10 tons, 0.6 %
   Armour: 3 tons, 0.1 %
     - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
     - Armament: 3 tons, 0.1 %
     - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
     - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 21 tons, 1.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,166 tons, 63.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 124 tons, 6.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 27.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4,848 lbs / 2,199 Kg = 137.2 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 13.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.95

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.451
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.38 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.15 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 25 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 26
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 59.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      16.67 ft / 5.08 m
     - Forecastle (20 %):   10.60 ft / 3.23 m
     - Mid (50 %):      10.60 ft / 3.23 m
     - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.60 ft / 3.23 m
     - Stern:      10.60 ft / 3.23 m
     - Average freeboard:   11.08 ft / 3.38 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 39.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 86.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,962 Square feet or 554 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 290 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 124 lbs/sq ft or 604 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 2.21
      - Longitudinal: 6.71
      - Overall: 2.47
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

A Sail Training ship for the nascent Bavarian Navy.

She is equipped with an auxilary engine capable of driving her at 9.5kts and sufficient range to tour the med.

Complement 83 + 140 midshipmen

Description closely based on the Rumanian 1938 Mircea

Guinness · August 19, 2008, 07:41:31 PM

For my minesweeper:

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2458.msg25920#msg25920

I took a WAG, and allocated 10 tons to minesweeping gear, which is basically the paravanes and associated winches, and not much else. This is probably too little, but I suspect that 75 tons is probably too much, even on a bigger ship.

As to speed: you and I had similar thoughts on that issue. The first class of ships is likely to be entirely experimental. FWIW, I suspect the CSA will find 15 knots to be almost good enough, but not quite, and a next class is likely to be a little longer and a little faster...

Kaiser Kirk · August 19, 2008, 09:23:42 PM

I like your little MSW ship, interesting you armored the fuel tank. Nice pic, something I just don't seem to manage. While steadiness is lower, survivability is far higher- result of my trying to cram that 1700ihp engine into my small craft- eats up the space.

Well I'm calling them "minewarfare" and expecting that they will primarily sweep, but if a field needs to be put down off my harbor, they can trundle out and manage it.

Bazhell's kliene kruisers have mine rails for offensive laying, but it would be a waste to tie those up securing the approaches. So hopefully that 75t covers both paravanes/winches and a mine rail and space to store some mines.

Guinness · August 19, 2008, 09:28:55 PM

Yeah, the armored fuel tank was actually my predecessor's concept. The minesweeper is an evolution of a small patrol "sloop" that predated my arrival in the nVerse. They make for cheap and useful little ships though.

Equipping your sweepers as second-class minelayers makes some sense too. As long as they are working relatively friendly waters, speed won't matter much for minelaying. I wonder if Bavaria might benefit from the British interwar practice of equipping alternating classes of destroyers for minelaying or minesweeping...

Kaiser Kirk · August 19, 2008, 10:36:48 PM

Probably. I'm looking at laying down a 3rd squadron of TBs and a CL leader in 1912 or 1913 (1), perhaps I will fit them all for mines :)

(1)somebody should have graduated from the academy by time they launch.

Borys · August 20, 2008, 12:40:08 AM

You have the Stablimento Tecnico Triestino and the Monfacone yard. They know everything there is to know about building warships.
True that designing them is a different matter, and these folks could had stayed over the broder, or emigrated.
Good point on the engines - unless the French ordered engines for the MN from the Wuertemberg, Baden or Schwytz, then it is a brand new industry.
Borys