'Soft-Kill' Capital ship studies

Started by P3D, May 20, 2008, 05:50:50 PM

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P3D

May 20, 2008, 05:50:50 PM
With the increasing battle distances and armor sizes, larger and larger guns are necessary to achieve penetration. Alternative solution is to aim for "soft damage" instead - higher rate of fire with large number of main guns, and liberal usage of SAP shells. After enemy ship lost its FC and secondaries, and slowed down by flooded bow, destroyers close-in and sink the ship with torpedoes.

ONS Hailstorm 1, battleship study, laid down 1916

Displacement:
   38,426 t light; 40,821 t standard; 44,280 t normal; 47,047 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   730.19 ft / 720.00 ft x 103.00 ft x 34.00 ft (normal load)
   222.56 m / 219.46 m x 31.39 m  x 10.36 m

Armament:
      20 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (5x4 guns), 1,100.00lbs / 498.95kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      16 - 0.80" / 20.3 mm guns in single mounts, 0.26lbs / 0.12kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      16 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 22,517 lbs / 10,213 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   470.00 ft / 143.26 m   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   250.00 ft / 76.20 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   470.00 ft / 143.26 m   44.00 ft / 13.41 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 381 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      15.0" / 381 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      3.00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   ERROR: Revise drives, 4 shafts, 109,194 shp / 81,459 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6,226 tons

Complement:
   1,526 - 1,984

Cost:
   £6.191 million / $24.762 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,225 tons, 5.0 %
   Armour: 15,887 tons, 35.9 %
      - Belts: 5,688 tons, 12.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,530 tons, 3.5 %
      - Armament: 4,223 tons, 9.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,069 tons, 9.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 378 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 4,068 tons, 9.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,845 tons, 35.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,854 tons, 13.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     53,691 lbs / 24,354 Kg = 62.1 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 8.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 17.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.615
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.99 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.50 ft / 5.94 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.29 ft / 6.19 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 54,985 Square feet or 5,108 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 207 lbs/sq ft or 1,011 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.27
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
The first purpose of a warship is to remain afloat. Anon.
Below 40 degrees, there is no law. Below 50 degrees, there is no God. sailor's maxim on weather in the Southern seas

P3D

#1
May 20, 2008, 05:54:15 PM
Second version, with intermediate caliber guns. Somewhat higher ROF compensate for the lighter shells. Armor is designed to withstand long-range large-caliber fire. Armor kept on BB levels.

Hailstorm 2, BB study, laid down 1916

Displacement:
   30,813 t light; 32,655 t standard; 35,680 t normal; 38,100 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   730.19 ft / 720.00 ft x 96.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
   222.56 m / 219.46 m x 29.26 m  x 9.75 m

Armament:
      20 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (5x4 guns), 475.00lbs / 215.46kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      16 - 0.80" / 20.3 mm guns in single mounts, 0.26lbs / 0.12kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      16 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 10,017 lbs / 4,543 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   470.00 ft / 143.26 m   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   250.00 ft / 76.20 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   470.00 ft / 143.26 m   44.00 ft / 13.41 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 381 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      15.0" / 381 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      3.00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   ERROR: Revise drives, 4 shafts, 93,100 shp / 69,453 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,445 tons

Complement:
   1,297 - 1,687

Cost:
   £3.986 million / $15.944 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,038 tons, 2.9 %
   Armour: 14,235 tons, 39.9 %
      - Belts: 5,635 tons, 15.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,530 tons, 4.3 %
      - Armament: 3,125 tons, 8.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,619 tons, 10.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 327 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 3,469 tons, 9.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,672 tons, 32.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,867 tons, 13.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     55,430 lbs / 25,143 Kg = 142.4 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 10.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 17.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.565
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.83 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.50 ft / 5.94 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.29 ft / 6.19 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 141.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 48,903 Square feet or 4,543 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 119 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 167 lbs/sq ft or 817 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.17
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The first purpose of a warship is to remain afloat. Anon.
Below 40 degrees, there is no law. Below 50 degrees, there is no God. sailor's maxim on weather in the Southern seas

Borys

#2
July 16, 2008, 01:38:45 PM
The second design could use 500lbs shells.
An interesting concept, to say the least ...
Borys
NEDS - Not Enough Deck Space for all those guns and torpedos;
Bambi must DIE!

P3D

#3
July 16, 2008, 05:17:59 PM
The 9.2" version has the problem that at distances it won't penetrate upper belts, even with AP.

Slight modifications to the first design. 15 degree sloped 13" belt, without bulges ("negative" bulge), secondary battery  16x5", lengthened.

Could take 9-10x16" on the same displacement for the similar broadside.

Hailstorm 3 laid down 1916

Displacement:
   40,597 t light; 43,473 t standard; 47,085 t normal; 49,975 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   781.28 ft / 770.00 ft x 110.00 ft x 34.00 ft (normal load)
   238.14 m / 234.70 m x 33.53 m  x 10.36 m

Armament:
      20 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (5x4 guns), 1,100.00lbs / 498.95kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 0.80" / 20.3 mm guns in single mounts, 0.26lbs / 0.12kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      16 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1916 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 23,005 lbs / 10,435 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.5" / 343 mm   500.00 ft / 152.40 m   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   270.00 ft / 82.30 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   500.00 ft / 152.40 m   44.00 ft / 13.41 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 381 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      15.0" / 381 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 110,001 shp / 82,060 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6,502 tons

Complement:
   1,597 - 2,077

Cost:
   £6.406 million / $25.622 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,286 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 16,649 tons, 35.4 %
      - Belts: 5,871 tons, 12.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,628 tons, 3.5 %
      - Armament: 4,099 tons, 8.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,658 tons, 9.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 393 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 4,098 tons, 8.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,164 tons, 36.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,488 tons, 13.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     60,951 lbs / 27,647 Kg = 70.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 9.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
   Roll period: 16.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.617
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.55 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 27.75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31.00 ft / 9.45 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (50 %):      19.50 ft / 5.94 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.53 ft / 6.26 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 62,945 Square feet or 5,848 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 205 lbs/sq ft or 1,001 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.17
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
The first purpose of a warship is to remain afloat. Anon.
Below 40 degrees, there is no law. Below 50 degrees, there is no God. sailor's maxim on weather in the Southern seas

khymerion

#4
July 17, 2008, 07:58:02 AM
That... is... a fantastic concept.  Not only a nightmare to capital ships but to smaller flotillas of ships as well...  and to the navally uninitiated, it would be a fantastic PR ship to take pictures of to raise war bonds...  after all, who in government really understands what goes into the navy anyways... *makes silly hand waving gesture*
Hopelessly trapped behind mountains of outdated miniature games.

Borys

#5
July 17, 2008, 08:08:56 AM
The only problem with this concept is that the vitals of the enemy battleships will remain immune. And there is a chance that before the "Torrent of Fire" will seriously deterioriate shooting, the enemy's 15" or heavier guns will score hits on the Hailstorm.
And 42,000 tonnes buys me two battleships with 8x13,5" each ...
Borys
NEDS - Not Enough Deck Space for all those guns and torpedos;
Bambi must DIE!

ctwaterman

#6
July 17, 2008, 08:19:20 AM
I dont know Fire can kill a ship and there will be an awful lot of powder and stuff in a BB secondary batteries.  Kill the air intakes and shoot up the funnels and a BC is not going to be running away very fast...  It wont directly threaten the Vitals but US DD and Cruiser nearly cut Hei's pagoda superstructure off her in the solomons leaving her to be sunk by US air power latter.  In this instance that would be Destroyers with Torpedoes latter. 

I wouldnt count on it winning but until we get 18K plus yards range finders killing a ship requires closing into the range of those 12" Guns and the 5" as well
Just Browsing nothing to See Move Along

P3D

#7
July 18, 2008, 12:50:01 AM
These concepts are kind of revisiting the good old predreadnought days where penetration of vitals was the exception not the norm. And in Nverse ships are so heavily armored that most time penetration is out of the question, as I noted in the Netherlands BB thread.

However, to deliver the same broadside the ship needs about the same displacement regardless of gun caliber, which is no surprise looking at the physics - actually less if the larger guns fit in fewer turrets). So does twice the number of hits worth sacrificing penetration against older generation ships? Not taking into account HE/SAP/Common vs. APC. As one could use HE for the 16" guns just as easily.
Another advantage of the zillion guns against smaller ships is the ability to split fire.

I can get a 23kts version on ~33000t.
The first purpose of a warship is to remain afloat. Anon.
Below 40 degrees, there is no law. Below 50 degrees, there is no God. sailor's maxim on weather in the Southern seas
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