A design study by the DKB

[Korpen]

Sorry Sachmle

Dims are for Docks not for Ships

Still does not say if it is the lenght of the dock or lenght of the ships the dock can acomendate. :P
As we so far have used the later interpetation i would say that that is the correct one.
So here is no need to shorthen the ship by as much as a mm if it is 220m long.

Now, the large number of small guns is namely because I detest the idea of not having a smaller weapon option when doing privateering work or armed interdiction.  What good is a prize if it is sunk by 1 or 2 heavy rounds. 

First, this ship can never do privateering work as it is a national ship and not a private vessel.
Second: Do you expect opposed boardings?????? If  merchantman do not surrender to a BB they are so self-destuctive that they would blow up their ship in case of capture in any way.

[Jefgte]

About the lenghts, Docks & Ships,
made the right choice Khymerion

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=86.0



Jef ;)

[khymerion]

And now for a much lighter, sleeker, faster ship...  this time with more standardized weapons than the monster beast before in line with established naval armaments...  Oh, and it is meant to run away from all that out gun her...  thus more stern turrets than fore.  The Battleline is not for her.  The pacific  and indian oceans are too wide for European style battle lines.



SMS Ritterlich, Deutcher Kaiserreich Brandenburg Surface Raider laid down 1913

Displacement:
   14,538 t light; 15,217 t standard; 16,162 t normal; 16,919 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   572.08 ft / 555.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
   174.37 m / 169.16 m x 22.86 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.68kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      10 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1913 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6,227 lbs / 2,825 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   460.75 ft / 140.44 m   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Ends:   2.00" / 51 mm     94.23 ft / 28.72 m   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Upper:   3.00" / 76 mm   460.75 ft / 140.44 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 128 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.00" / 25 mm   460.75 ft / 140.44 m   24.09 ft / 7.34 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,892 shp / 59,600 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,702 tons

Complement:
   716 - 931

Cost:
   £1.746 million / $6.986 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 778 tons, 4.8 %
   Armour: 4,550 tons, 28.2 %
      - Belts: 1,903 tons, 11.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 411 tons, 2.5 %
      - Armament: 1,141 tons, 7.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 985 tons, 6.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 110 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 3,131 tons, 19.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,055 tons, 37.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,625 tons, 10.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 24 tons, 0.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,561 lbs / 6,605 Kg = 16.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.91

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.453
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.40 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.91 ft / 7.90 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.49 ft / 5.03 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.49 ft / 5.03 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.49 ft / 5.03 m
      - Stern:      16.49 ft / 5.03 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.24 ft / 5.26 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 135.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,617 Square feet or 2,473 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 713 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.74
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Sachmle]

On her weight and beam a TDS is at best ineffective, and is most likely the cause of your

Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

issue. I'd ditch it.

[khymerion]

One moment it seems to work...  the next...  *starts scribbling again*  Oh well...  just means to keep playing with it till it either turns into a giant tuna fish or actually starts to work.

[Desertfox]

A pocket Scharnhorts...

Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

means that she might be able to run away in good weather, but in bad weather she is a sitting duck.

[The Rock Doctor]

Easy enough: 

Delete TBS --> Lets you reduce extent of main belt --> Lets you increase freeboard.

To be fair, a giant tuna might freak out any would-be enemies as well.

[Sachmle]

Weren't there "Tuna" cruisers in the last war, and "Cod"s?

[khymerion]

Now no longer thin and sleek... now fat by 20' but should be better...  the 'tuna cruiser' *sigh*  So much for narrow and elegant... heh... handles better now though while making the speed goal!

SMS Ritterlich, Deutcher Kaiserreich Brandenburg Surface Raider laid down 1913

Displacement:
   14,898 t light; 15,621 t standard; 16,595 t normal; 17,374 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   576.39 ft / 555.00 ft x 95.00 ft x 34.00 ft (normal load)
   175.68 m / 169.16 m x 28.96 m  x 10.36 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.67kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      10 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.24lbs / 0.11kg shells, 1913 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6,227 lbs / 2,825 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   352.75 ft / 107.52 m   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Ends:   2.00" / 51 mm   202.23 ft / 61.64 m   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Upper:   2.00" / 51 mm   352.75 ft / 107.52 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 78,319 shp / 58,426 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,753 tons

Complement:
   730 - 950

Cost:
   £1.751 million / $7.003 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 778 tons, 4.7 %
   Armour: 3,375 tons, 20.3 %
      - Belts: 1,505 tons, 9.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,157 tons, 7.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 600 tons, 3.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 112 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 3,069 tons, 18.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,400 tons, 44.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,697 tons, 10.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 275 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17,254 lbs / 7,826 Kg = 19.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.32
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.16

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.324
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.84 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      33.00 ft / 10.06 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.28 ft / 5.57 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 32,454 Square feet or 3,015 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 163 lbs/sq ft or 794 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.69
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Marconi - 25 tons
Fire Control - 250 tons

[P3D]

- engine year should be 1912
- the clipper bow won't fit in a lvl 2 dock
- block coefficient is way below acceptable
- armored deck is too thin

[Borys]

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   15 478 t light; 16 100 t standard; 17 110 t normal; 17 918 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   560,00 ft / 560,00 ft x 90,00 ft x 26,00 ft (normal load)
   170,69 m / 170,69 m x 27,43 m  x 7,92 m

Armament:
      8 - 9,45" / 240 mm guns (4x2 guns), 421,95lbs / 191,40kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      10 - 5,90" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102,69lbs / 46,58kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 4 403 lbs / 1 997 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6,00" / 152 mm   340,00 ft / 103,63 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   220,00 ft / 67,06 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   3,00" / 76 mm   364,00 ft / 110,95 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
     Main Belt covers 93% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7,00" / 178 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      6,00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8,00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 84 622 shp / 63 128 Kw = 29,00 kts
   Range 9 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 818 tons

Complement:
   747 - 972

Cost:
   £1,611 million / $6,442 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 550 tons, 3,2%
   Armour: 4 478 tons, 26,2%
      - Belts: 2 134 tons, 12,5%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 1 034 tons, 6,0%
      - Armour Deck: 1 196 tons, 7,0%
      - Conning Tower: 114 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 3 374 tons, 19,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6 725 tons, 39,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 632 tons, 9,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21 412 lbs / 9 712 Kg = 50,7 x 9,5 " / 240 mm shells or 2,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 5,1 ft / 1,6 m
   Roll period: 16,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,10

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,457
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,22 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,00 ft / 9,14 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   26,00 ft / 7,92 m
      - Mid (50%):      26,00 ft / 7,92 m (18,00 ft / 5,49 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Stern:      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Average freeboard:   22,32 ft / 6,80 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 178,9%
   Waterplane Area: 32 335 Square feet or 3 004 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 700 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,93
      - Longitudinal: 1,99
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Borys]

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   16 499 t light; 17 256 t standard; 18 308 t normal; 19 150 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   560,00 ft / 560,00 ft x 90,00 ft x 26,00 ft (normal load)
   170,69 m / 170,69 m x 27,43 m  x 7,92 m

Armament:
      6 - 12,00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 864,00lbs / 391,90kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      10 - 5,90" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102,69lbs / 46,58kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 6 211 lbs / 2 817 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   6,00" / 152 mm   360,00 ft / 109,73 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   200,00 ft / 60,96 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Upper:   3,00" / 76 mm   364,00 ft / 110,95 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
     Main Belt covers 99% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7,00" / 178 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      6,00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8,00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 89 847 shp / 67 026 Kw = 29,00 kts
   Range 9 000nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 894 tons

Complement:
   786 - 1 023

Cost:
   £1,889 million / $7,554 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 776 tons, 4,2%
   Armour: 4 476 tons, 24,4%
      - Belts: 2 150 tons, 11,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 976 tons, 5,3%
      - Armour Deck: 1 230 tons, 6,7%
      - Conning Tower: 120 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 3 582 tons, 19,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7 315 tons, 40,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 809 tons, 9,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20 777 lbs / 9 424 Kg = 24,0 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 5,1 ft / 1,6 m
   Roll period: 16,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,489
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,22 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,00 ft / 9,14 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   26,00 ft / 7,92 m
      - Mid (50%):      26,00 ft / 7,92 m (18,00 ft / 5,49 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Stern:      18,00 ft / 5,49 m
      - Average freeboard:   22,32 ft / 6,80 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 174,8%
   Waterplane Area: 33 248 Square feet or 3 089 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 152 lbs/sq ft or 743 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 2,03
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[P3D]

Borys, stop copying my cruisers! >:(

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I was trying to salvage something from Khymerion's designs.
It must be that Great Minds think alike ... given certain dimensions, tonnage and weapons, it is not surprising that I emulated your designs ...

Borys

[maddox]

- engine year should be 1912

Or 1916 if next level is already reached. 1912 for now.

- the clipper bow won't fit in a lvl 2 dock

Easely solved by another bowform.

- block coefficient is way below acceptable

Correct, SSII starts to have issues below .38. And .38 is the hullform of a raching yacht, not an all out BC.

- armored deck is too thin

If it fits the needs, and the politicians allow it, even an unarmored deck is plausible. On the other hand, 1" is thin on a modern 16Ktons ship, and the ship builders of Brandenburg know that.