A design study by the DKB

[khymerion]

SMS Traumziel, Deutcher Kaiserreich Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1913

Displacement:
   27,669 t light; 29,377 t standard; 30,991 t normal; 32,282 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   746.84 ft / 728.00 ft x 101.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
   227.64 m / 221.89 m x 30.78 m  x 9.75 m

Armament:
      8 - 13.80" / 351 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,314.04lbs / 596.04kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      26 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1913 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      24 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12,674 lbs / 5,749 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   473.20 ft / 144.23 m   12.06 ft / 3.68 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   254.78 ft / 77.66 m   12.06 ft / 3.68 m
   Upper:   9.00" / 229 mm   473.20 ft / 144.23 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   473.20 ft / 144.23 m   28.44 ft / 8.67 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   10.0" / 254 mm         -               -
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm   2.00" / 51 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   5th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.75" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 9.00" / 229 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 80,082 shp / 59,741 Kw = 26.81 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,904 tons

Complement:
   1,167 - 1,518

Cost:
   £2.987 million / $11.950 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,584 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 10,438 tons, 33.7 %
      - Belts: 4,108 tons, 13.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 996 tons, 3.2 %
      - Armament: 2,734 tons, 8.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,408 tons, 7.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 191 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 3,138 tons, 10.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,134 tons, 39.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,322 tons, 10.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     40,080 lbs / 18,180 Kg = 30.5 x 13.8 " / 351 mm shells or 6.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 6.2 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 17.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.33

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.461
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.21 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.98 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.68 ft / 9.05 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Stern:      18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.75 ft / 6.02 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 145.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 47,332 Square feet or 4,397 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 887 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.30
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Fire Control - 250 tons
Marconi - 25 tons
Flag Accomodations - 25 tons
VIP Accomodations - 25 tons
Climitasation - 10 tons
Reserve for cargo - 40 tons

Pushing the very limits of DKB industry, the proposal for the SMS Traumziel (Dream Destination) would give the DKB a heavier combatant to the smaller Moltke and Scharnhorst class BC.  Time will tell if enough material can be scraped up to begin work on the class.

[P3D]

Welcome back...

[khymerion]

Thank you.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I've already wellcomed you back by PM :)

Quite good, for a tin-clad :)

I'd swap the ticknesses of turret face and barbette. Like P3D once pointed out to me, the barbette is round, and thus sots can ricochette off. You can sail at angles to the enemy, and thus avoid perpendicular hts on the belt. But the turret faces are exposed to perpendicular hits, and thus deserve the extra inch or two.
Borys

[Korpen]

First: Welcome back.

SMS Traumziel, Deutcher Kaiserreich Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1913

Right, were to begin? ;)
Think the engine year should be 1912...

227.64 m / 221.89 m x 30.78 m  x 9.75 m
   Block coefficient: 0.461

Would suggest cutting her length to 220m so she can use tupe 3 dock, as outlined she would need a type 4. Considering her very low BC, it would probably be a good idea to reduce beam, and possibly draft as well. This should save quite allot of weight.

16  150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1913 Model
8  127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1913 Model

Apart from the DKB having no 127mm guns in service; what is the point of using both 15cm and 12,7cm guns? The capabillities they bring are after all very similar.

26 - 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1913 Model
24 - 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1913 Model

What is the thought behind this huge number of peashooters? They need huge numbers of crew, but bring nothing to the combat capabillity of the ship.

- Armour deck: 2.75" / 70 mm

Just curious: what kind of layout of the deck armour is intended, single deck, or split in two (top of belt and waterline)?

[Jefgte]

Welcome back Khymerion

I agree globaly with Korpen

Just the lenght...219m max for a 220m dock.

You could adjust the displacement with the draught in mm
27669t for 9.75m
27600t for 9.73862m


Jef  ;)

[Korpen]

Just the lenght...219m max for a 220m dock.

Incorrect.

[Jefgte]

Incorrect...

Why ?

[maddox]

A 220m drydock/slipway can accomodate a ship with 220m waterline length, but has troubles with ships with an overall length longer than 220.

I know several reasons and tricks irl that can tweak those lengths. But for the Nverse, that's the rule.

It's one of the reasons all the build French vessels have a rambow.

[Borys]

In Scotland there is a drydock which has a notch in the landside wall to accomodate the HMS Hood.

[Jefgte]

I was speaking about OA lenght.

219m -

50cm each ends - Thanks for workers at stem & stern, riveting -welding later - painting...

(219.6m  is always good, but short)


Jef

[Sachmle]

Lets just say for the sake of argument that all slips/docks are 1m longer then max ship size, so a type 3 is 221m long, but can only fit a 220m ship. OK  ;)

[Jefgte]

Sorry Sachmle

Dims are for Docks not for Ships

extract from rules
------------------------------
"FLOATING DRYDOCKS

They are only capable of repairing ships. Cheaper but they also cost the same amount of BP as $.

Type 0, Dry-dock 70 meters/230 feet, cost $3
Type 1, Dry-dock 120 meters/393 feet, cost $6
Type 2, Dry-dock 170 meters/557 feet, cost $9
Type 3, Dry-dock 220 meters/721 feet, cost $12
Type 4, Dry-dock 270 meters/885 feet, cost $16
Type 5, Dry-dock 320 meters/1049 feet, cost $20
"
--------------------------------------------------

For Dock 721' = 219.76m is not 221m for Ships

That is not difficult to adjust the oa lenght from 221 to 219.4...   :D  :D  :D


Jef  ;)

[khymerion]

Hmmmm...  okay... note to self... do not put an angled forwards bow on a warship with an overhang on the stern...  it artificially lengthens the ship to cause problems.  I thought I was doing it right but I will properly fix things like this in the future... gotta remember, waterline length does not equate to total length...   I messed up and it will be corrected in the future...  remember, its been awhile.

But I corrected the length...  so here goes try two
SMS Traumziel, Deutcher Kaiserreich Brandenburg Schlachtkreuzer laid down 1913

Displacement:
   27,293 t light; 28,972 t standard; 30,568 t normal; 31,844 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   737.84 ft / 719.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 32.00 ft (normal load)
   224.89 m / 219.15 m x 30.48 m  x 9.75 m

Armament:
      8 - 13.80" / 351 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,314.04lbs / 596.04kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      26 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1913 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      24 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1913 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12,457 lbs / 5,650 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   473.20 ft / 144.23 m   12.06 ft / 3.68 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   245.78 ft / 74.91 m   12.06 ft / 3.68 m
   Upper:   9.00" / 229 mm   473.20 ft / 144.23 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   473.20 ft / 144.23 m   28.44 ft / 8.67 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   10.0" / 254 mm         -               -
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm   2.00" / 51 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   5th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.75" / 70 mm, Conning tower: 9.00" / 229 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,818 shp / 59,544 Kw = 26.81 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,872 tons

Complement:
   1,155 - 1,502

Cost:
   £2.947 million / $11.787 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,557 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 10,348 tons, 33.9 %
      - Belts: 4,084 tons, 13.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 996 tons, 3.3 %
      - Armament: 2,715 tons, 8.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,363 tons, 7.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 190 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 3,128 tons, 10.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,885 tons, 38.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,275 tons, 10.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 375 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39,041 lbs / 17,709 Kg = 29.7 x 13.8 " / 351 mm shells or 6.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.31

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.465
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.19 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.81 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.68 ft / 9.05 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Stern:      18.89 ft / 5.76 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.75 ft / 6.02 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 46,442 Square feet or 4,315 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 181 lbs/sq ft or 882 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.32
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Fire Control - 250 tons
Marconi - 25 tons
Flag Accomodations - 25 tons
VIP Accomodations - 25 tons
Climitasation - 10 tons
Reserve for cargo - 40 tons

Now, the large number of small guns is namely because I detest the idea of not having a smaller weapon option when doing privateering work or armed interdiction.  What good is a prize if it is sunk by 1 or 2 heavy rounds.  I also enjoy having a number of lesser guns, I know that in the long run, they are all going to get plated over... but for now... it lends to a majestic appearance.  As for the 127mm guns, it was a move that I forgot wasn't in regular service so moving to a 105mm to be in better line with established DKB ships is in the end a better idea... thanks to those pointing that out.

[Valles]

Fast, well-armed, good range and good handling. Go for it, sir! ^_^