Glorious Republique class BB rebuild

[Ithekro]

Older, still off topic discussion responce from someone who is more knowledgable on the subject matter of armor.

Can't do it. 
"Minimal curvature" is still curvature.  There would have to be too much "fitting" to make it fit right.  AND, there is such a thing as metal fatigue.  (I know I've heard that word.)  And corrosion.  And the loving care of the workers taking it off the other ship. There would also be the expense of moving this second hand material to the new building site.  The new construction is right next dock?  Unlikely. 

But it's only a wargame.

[Talos]

Didn't they take the armor belt off of Almirante Cochrane during her conversion to HMS Eagle and mount it on one of the R-class battlecruisers? I believe it was Renown, leaving Repulse to wait until a new one could be fabricated.

[P3D]

Older, still off topic discussion responce from someone who is more knowledgable on the subject matter of armor.

Can't do it. 
"Minimal curvature" is still curvature.  There would have to be too much "fitting" to make it fit right.  AND, there is such a thing as metal fatigue.  (I know I've heard that word.)  And corrosion.  And the loving care of the workers taking it off the other ship. There would also be the expense of moving this second hand material to the new building site.  The new construction is right next dock?  Unlikely.

Bullshit. Amidship hull curvature is measured in millimeters if not less, such gap would exist between the armor plates or not. The backing material evens it out. Geometric concerns nonexistent.
Metal fatique is a non-issue on an armor plate which is not a structural element, and only subject to compressive stresses.
Corrosion ditto. Even if there are no sacrificial anodes, corrosion could be measured at most in millimeters, not noticed by a foot-and-some thick armor plate. Which is usually covered in paint.
And you need to make serious effort in order to damage an armor plate. Careless workers might only scratch it.

Why was armor not reused historically?
Armor development was fast until 1905 when it slowed down. Only ships with obsolete armor were scrapped.  No one scrapped old predreadnoughts in WWI, where there could have been extreme 'vanguarding' like I did with my light battleships, and the technological level of guns/armors was not much behind state-of-the-art. After the war came the treaties. Old armor plating was not thick enough either. And all new battleships had internal belts save the KGVs and the NCs.

[maddox]

The Dantons are approaching mid life overhaul, and some fertile minds figured out something to do, except scrapping.

Danton , French Battleship laid down 1898 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   16.292 t light; 17.497 t standard; 20.316 t normal; 22.572 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   449,48 ft / 442,91 ft x 82,02 ft (Bulges 98,43 ft) x 27,23 ft (normal load)
   137,00 m / 135,00 m x 25,00 m (Bulges 30,00 m)  x 8,30 m

Armament:
      4 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1898 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (2x2 guns), 661,39lbs / 300,00kg shells, 1898 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      18 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
      8 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 9.692 lbs / 4.396 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   270,00 ft / 82,30 m   15,00 ft / 4,57 m
   Ends:   6,00" / 152 mm   172,30 ft / 52,52 m   10,65 ft / 3,25 m
     0,61 ft / 0,19 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   6,00" / 152 mm   287,89 ft / 87,75 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 94% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   11,0" / 279 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17.181 ihp / 12.817 Kw = 18,00 kts
   Range 7.300nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.074 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   850 - 1.106

Cost:
   £1,667 million / $6,667 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.116 tons, 5,5%
   Armour: 6.896 tons, 33,9%
      - Belts: 3.414 tons, 16,8%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 1.767 tons, 8,7%
      - Armour Deck: 1.473 tons, 7,3%
      - Conning Tower: 241 tons, 1,2%
   Machinery: 1.138 tons, 5,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6.743 tons, 33,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.024 tons, 19,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27.448 lbs / 12.450 Kg = 22,9 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 4,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
   Metacentric height 5,2 ft / 1,6 m
   Roll period: 18,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,35
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,44

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,599
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21,05 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23,65 ft / 7,21 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   15,22 ft / 4,64 m
      - Mid (50%):      15,22 ft / 4,64 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   15,22 ft / 4,64 m
      - Stern:      15,22 ft / 4,64 m
      - Average freeboard:   15,90 ft / 4,85 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90,6%
   Waterplane Area: 26.545 Square feet or 2.466 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 173 lbs/sq ft or 845 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 2,10
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Bulged, re-engined, rearmed and rearmored.

The misc weight is divided between crew comfort, a set of Ears and FC

[Borys]

Impressive. Can be used as an oceanic patrol boat.
Slow, but good range at quite high cruising speed.

The World can sleep soundly, assured that the France to Quebec sea route is scure.

Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

Zzzzzzzz...

Actually, why not install single 34cm mounts in place of those twin 27.5cm while you're at it?  The homogenous main battery would be better from a fire control perspective.

[maddox]

Actualy a good idea Rocky, and the difference in broadsides is neglible.
This is what comes out then.

Danton , French Battleship laid down 1898 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   16.311 t light; 17.497 t standard; 20.316 t normal; 22.572 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   449,48 ft / 442,91 ft x 82,02 ft (Bulges 98,43 ft) x 27,23 ft (normal load)
   137,00 m / 135,00 m x 25,00 m (Bulges 30,00 m)  x 8,30 m

Armament:
      4 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1898 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns in single mounts, 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      18 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83,72lbs / 37,97kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
      8 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 9.527 lbs / 4.322 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 140

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   270,00 ft / 82,30 m   15,00 ft / 4,57 m
   Ends:   6,00" / 152 mm   172,30 ft / 52,52 m   10,65 ft / 3,25 m
     0,61 ft / 0,19 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   6,00" / 152 mm   287,89 ft / 87,75 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 94% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   13,0" / 330 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 15,00" / 381 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17.181 ihp / 12.817 Kw = 18,00 kts
   Range 7.300nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5.074 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   850 - 1.106

Cost:
   £1,653 million / $6,611 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.098 tons, 5,4%
   Armour: 6.730 tons, 33,1%
      - Belts: 3.414 tons, 16,8%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 1.602 tons, 7,9%
      - Armour Deck: 1.473 tons, 7,3%
      - Conning Tower: 241 tons, 1,2%
   Machinery: 1.138 tons, 5,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6.695 tons, 33,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4.005 tons, 19,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 650 tons, 3,2%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27.199 lbs / 12.337 Kg = 22,7 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 4,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20
   Metacentric height 5,2 ft / 1,6 m
   Roll period: 18,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,44

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,599
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21,05 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23,65 ft / 7,21 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   15,22 ft / 4,64 m
      - Mid (50%):      15,22 ft / 4,64 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   15,22 ft / 4,64 m
      - Stern:      15,22 ft / 4,64 m
      - Average freeboard:   15,90 ft / 4,85 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 64,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90,6%
   Waterplane Area: 26.545 Square feet or 2.466 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 172 lbs/sq ft or 839 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 2,11
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Bulged, re-engined, rearmed and rearmored.

The misc weight is divided between crew comfort, a set of Ears and FC

[The Rock Doctor]

That was my one good idea for this month, so I'm glad you like it.

[maddox]

After a lot of thinking, refitting the engines in the Dantons is a waste of money and time. Also, the regunning of the secundary main gun turrets is just not what france needs.
On the other hand, France needs hulls in the water.

Danton refit 1913, French Battleship laid down 1898

Displacement:
   15.517 t light; 16.709 t standard; 19.403 t normal; 21.558 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   449,48 ft / 442,91 ft x 82,02 ft (Bulges 95,14 ft) x 26,90 ft (normal load)
   137,00 m / 135,00 m x 25,00 m (Bulges 29,00 m)  x 8,20 m

Armament:
      4 - 13,39" / 340 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1.322,77lbs / 600,00kg shells, 1898 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (2x2 guns), 683,43lbs / 310,00kg shells, 1898 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 9.180 lbs / 4.164 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   270,00 ft / 82,30 m   10,65 ft / 3,25 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   172,30 ft / 52,52 m   10,65 ft / 3,25 m
     0,61 ft / 0,19 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   4,00" / 102 mm   287,89 ft / 87,75 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 94% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   11,0" / 279 mm   9,00" / 229 mm      12,0" / 305 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      3,00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12,00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13.370 ihp / 9.974 Kw = 17,00 kts
   Range 8.500nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4.849 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   821 - 1.068

Cost:
   £1,725 million / $6,900 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1.048 tons, 5,4%
   Armour: 5.295 tons, 27,3%
      - Belts: 2.380 tons, 12,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 1.746 tons, 9,0%
      - Armour Deck: 982 tons, 5,1%
      - Conning Tower: 187 tons, 1,0%
   Machinery: 2.157 tons, 11,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6.617 tons, 34,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3.886 tons, 20,0%
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 2,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20.506 lbs / 9.301 Kg = 17,1 x 13,4 " / 340 mm shells or 2,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,22
   Metacentric height 5,3 ft / 1,6 m
   Roll period: 17,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,40
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,61

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,599
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4,66 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21,05 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23,98 ft / 7,31 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   15,55 ft / 4,74 m
      - Mid (50%):      15,55 ft / 4,74 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   15,55 ft / 4,74 m
      - Stern:      15,55 ft / 4,74 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,23 ft / 4,95 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95,8%
   Waterplane Area: 26.545 Square feet or 2.466 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 172 lbs/sq ft or 837 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 2,09
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Bulged for improved torpedo protection, increased stability and more capacity
The 10" shallower draft helps in the new role as coastal bombardment vessel.
Speed dropped to 17 kts due the higher resistance of the bulges.

The removal of the heavy casemated guns and the replacement of the 140mm QF guns gives more room in the hull for the additional systems like the fire control unit and the set of ears.

Misch weight  distribution
250 tons FC
50 tons Ears
100 tons crew comfort