Glorious Republique class BB rebuild

[Ithekro]

I would point out that it is impossible to reuse armor (as is) from a warship to another warship.  These are form fitted pieces of steel.  Made specifically for the vessel in question.  They cannot just be taken off and fitting to a new hull.  It just doesn't work that way.  Making a new ship with the exact hull of the previous ship just to reuse the armor is also a very dumb idea as it be more efficient to just scrap the old armor for new plates, since this is not perfect computer factory construction...the ships will not be the same no matter how much the shipyard tries.  (Also what do you gain by repeating an outdated warship's hull just to use the old armor and guns in a period of time when rapid advances are still in progress?)

Melting the armor down to make new sheets to be hammered and fitted for a new specific ship, yes that is possible.

[P3D]

I would point out that it is impossible to reuse armor (as is) from a warship to another warship.  These are form fitted pieces of steel.  Made specifically for the vessel in question.  They cannot just be taken off and fitting to a new hull.  It just doesn't work that way.  Making a new ship with the exact hull of the previous ship just to reuse the armor is also a very dumb idea as it be more efficient to just scrap the old armor for new plates, since this is not perfect computer factory construction...the ships will not be the same no matter how much the shipyard tries.  (Also what do you gain by repeating an outdated warship's hull just to use the old armor and guns in a period of time when rapid advances are still in progress?)

Melting the armor down to make new sheets to be hammered and fitted for a new specific ship, yes that is possible.

You are completely wrong. Those "form-fitted" steel pieces of the belt armor are simple rectangular slabs (perhaps tapering at one end) that are attached to the hull by bolts. It is about plates thicker than 12" inches, you want geometry as simple as possible, or it takes twice as long and costs twice as much (or more).

The only places where they are cut to form are the barbettes, the turrets, the CT and casemates.

Besides, hull curvature change is usually minimal. A battleship waterplane perimeter can be approximated by circular arcs of 2000m radius. At 10m radius the divergence of a circular arc from a 1m-long tangential line is 5cm. That is approximately the curvature of the stern. Don't need much "form-fitting" if you can just fill the gap with easy-to-plane wood (even if it's teak) or concrete.
Putting any bend into the armor plate might produce larger errors due to piss-poor manufacturing dimension tolerances than keeping it simple and straight.

http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/AMMUNITION/ARMOR.html

[maddox]

No worry, the Republique's will be sold for scrap.

With the oil firing comment I got this.

Cuirassier rapide Un, French Fast heavy cruiser laid down 1913

Displacement:
   13.858 t light; 14.662 t standard; 16.370 t normal; 17.736 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   556,10 ft / 544,62 ft x 85,30 ft x 22,97 ft (normal load)
   169,50 m / 166,00 m x 26,00 m  x 7,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 12,01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 925,94lbs / 420,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      20 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 39,68lbs / 18,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, 8 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6.393 lbs / 2.900 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7,00" / 178 mm   354,00 ft / 107,90 m   11,70 ft / 3,57 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   190,60 ft / 58,09 m   11,08 ft / 3,38 m
   Upper:   4,00" / 102 mm   354,00 ft / 107,90 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   1,00" / 25 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7,00" / 178 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 60.195 shp / 44.905 Kw = 26,50 kts
   Range 8.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.074 tons

Complement:
   723 - 940

Cost:
   £1,570 million / $6,280 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 743 tons, 4,5%
   Armour: 4.251 tons, 26,0%
      - Belts: 2.070 tons, 12,6%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 899 tons, 5,5%
      - Armour Deck: 1.185 tons, 7,2%
      - Conning Tower: 97 tons, 0,6%
   Machinery: 2.359 tons, 14,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6.255 tons, 38,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.512 tons, 15,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 1,5%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20.197 lbs / 9.161 Kg = 23,3 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
   Metacentric height 4,9 ft / 1,5 m
   Roll period: 16,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,43
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,537
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,38 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,34 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27,89 ft / 8,50 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,21 ft / 5,55 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 83,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 144,8%
   Waterplane Area: 32.030 Square feet or 2.976 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 698 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,52
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Sachmle]

Nice cruiser killer, but w/ that turret armour I wouldn't want to fight anything that is even equal or you risk the 'golden twinkie".

[maddox]

Only so much I can do on a limited displacement.

[maddox]

Maybe this?

Éclair, French Cruisier tres Rapide laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   13.362 t light; 14.078 t standard; 16.020 t normal; 17.575 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   552,76 ft / 541,34 ft x 72,18 ft x 29,53 ft (normal load)
   168,48 m / 165,00 m x 22,00 m  x 9,00 m

Armament:
      6 - 12,01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 865,70lbs / 392,68kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      16 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (6 mounts), 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 5.780 lbs / 2.622 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7,00" / 178 mm   351,87 ft / 107,25 m   10,43 ft / 3,18 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   189,44 ft / 57,74 m   10,43 ft / 3,18 m
   Upper:   4,00" / 102 mm   351,87 ft / 107,25 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   1,00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 8,00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 70.610 shp / 52.675 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 9.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.497 tons

Complement:
   711 - 925

Cost:
   £1,602 million / $6,409 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 723 tons, 4,5%
   Armour: 3.657 tons, 22,8%
      - Belts: 1.871 tons, 11,7%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 963 tons, 6,0%
      - Armour Deck: 713 tons, 4,5%
      - Conning Tower: 110 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 2.815 tons, 17,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5.867 tons, 36,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.658 tons, 16,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17.172 lbs / 7.789 Kg = 19,8 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11
   Metacentric height 3,7 ft / 1,1 m
   Roll period: 15,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,486
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,27 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27,56 ft / 8,40 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Stern:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,31 ft / 6,19 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126,9%
   Waterplane Area: 25.707 Square feet or 2.388 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 684 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 2,12
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Nice AC.
Due to gunery reasons, I don't like six gun designs. Unless this is an exercise in reusing turrets, maybe use the nearest smaller calibre you have, 274mm if I remember correctly, and get eigth guns?

Borys

[maddox]

This better?

Éclair, French Cruisier tres Rapide laid down 1913 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   13.392 t light; 14.125 t standard; 16.020 t normal; 17.537 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   552,76 ft / 541,34 ft x 72,18 ft x 29,53 ft (normal load)
   168,48 m / 165,00 m x 22,00 m  x 9,00 m

Armament:
      8 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (4x2 guns), 683,43lbs / 310,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      16 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns (6 mounts), 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6.054 lbs / 2.746 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7,00" / 178 mm   351,87 ft / 107,25 m   10,43 ft / 3,18 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   189,44 ft / 57,74 m   10,43 ft / 3,18 m
   Upper:   4,00" / 102 mm   351,87 ft / 107,25 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   1,00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 8,00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 70.610 shp / 52.675 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 12.400nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.411 tons

Complement:
   711 - 925

Cost:
   £1,590 million / $6,360 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 708 tons, 4,4%
   Armour: 3.749 tons, 23,4%
      - Belts: 1.797 tons, 11,2%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 1.129 tons, 7,0%
      - Armour Deck: 713 tons, 4,5%
      - Conning Tower: 110 tons, 0,7%
   Machinery: 2.815 tons, 17,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5.819 tons, 36,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.629 tons, 16,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17.061 lbs / 7.739 Kg = 26,9 x 10,8 " / 275 mm shells or 2,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 3,7 ft / 1,1 m
   Roll period: 15,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,70
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,10

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,486
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,27 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27,56 ft / 8,40 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Mid (50%):      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Stern:      19,69 ft / 6,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   20,31 ft / 6,19 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 126,9%
   Waterplane Area: 25.707 Square feet or 2.388 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 139 lbs/sq ft or 678 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 2,10
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Borys]

Cool!

[maddox]

I like the heavy gunned version better, but can't fit  340 or 380mm guns.

[Borys]

well, it IS a 14,000 tonnes standard ship :)

[maddox]

So, she's balanced and has a purpose in the MN?

[Borys]

Yes. IMO a good cruiser.
Borys

[maddox]

They have to replace BB's, and that's a tall order to get them by the politicians.   

"Replacing battleships with mere cruisers? What an insult to Glorious France!"

[Sachmle]

They have to replace BB's, and that's a tall order to get them by the politicians.   

"Replacing battleships with mere cruisers? What an insult to Glorious France!"

*French mode on*
But monsieur, they are much faster than any battleship we have.
Well then design a faster battleship instead of these petty cruisers.
*French mode off*