Glorious Republique class BB rebuild

[maddox]

How much work to neck down the 305mm barbettes to hold the 275mm's?

Not so much, just a new roller ring to carry the smaller turret and replacing the shell and powder lifts with the smaller ones.

[maddox]

The most basic overhaul. Just replacing the tertiary to quitrinary guns with modern ones, plating over the casemates, removing torpedo's and increasing the misc weight with 50 tons.

If this route is taken, the ships will be sold.

Republique, French Battleship laid down 1897

Displacement:
   14.115 t light; 14.894 t standard; 16.657 t normal; 18.067 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   433,07 ft / 426,51 ft x 80,38 ft x 28,87 ft (normal load)
   132,00 m / 130,00 m x 24,50 m  x 8,80 m

Armament:
      4 - 12,01" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 865,70lbs / 392,67kg shells, 1897 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 10,83" / 275 mm guns (2x2 guns), 634,55lbs / 287,83kg shells, 1897 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns (12 mounts), 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 10,47lbs / 4,75kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 7.524 lbs / 3.413 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   277,23 ft / 84,50 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   149,26 ft / 45,49 m   10,76 ft / 3,28 m
   Upper:   4,00" / 102 mm   277,23 ft / 84,50 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13,0" / 330 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   12,0" / 305 mm   10,0" / 254 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   3rd:   2,00" / 51 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      1,00" / 25 mm
   4th:   0,50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3,00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13,00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13.402 ihp / 9.998 Kw = 17,50 kts
   Range 6.000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3.172 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   733 - 953

Cost:
   £1,577 million / $6,307 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 923 tons, 5,5%
   Armour: 5.197 tons, 31,2%
      - Belts: 2.021 tons, 12,1%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 1.616 tons, 9,7%
      - Armour Deck: 1.377 tons, 8,3%
      - Conning Tower: 183 tons, 1,1%
   Machinery: 2.197 tons, 13,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5.648 tons, 33,9%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.542 tons, 15,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16.638 lbs / 7.547 Kg = 19,2 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,06
   Metacentric height 4,1 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 16,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 82 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,67
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,63

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,589
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,31 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20,65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25,59 ft / 7,80 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Mid (50%):      14,76 ft / 4,50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   14,76 ft / 4,50 m
      - Stern:      14,76 ft / 4,50 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,52 ft / 5,03 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100,1%
   Waterplane Area: 24.817 Square feet or 2.306 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 158 lbs/sq ft or 772 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,91
      - Longitudinal: 2,42
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[The Rock Doctor]

An option might be to consider deleting the 10.83" guns and using the freed-up hull strength (and vacated crew quarters) for a couple hundred marines.  You'd then have a combination of coastal defence battleship and rapid-reaction (okay, not that rapid) landing force:  a useful asset for your smaller, distant, and/or troublesome colonies that don't really warrant a modern battle squadron.

[maddox]

Actualy, a good idea Rocky, but with upgrading the engines to a certain year and reboilering, these ships can be a bit faster and can keep up with the new cruise speed of the larger vessels.

Only 1 problem. Ripping out the Barbettes ain't an option. But the 691 tons those weight dissapear when you delete the turrets themselfs.

[P3D]

Removing 700t amidships would indeed cause problems.

[Sachmle]

But if replaced w/ structural material for berths for the marines and holds for their ammo and small field artillery, not so much of a problem.

[maddox]

Barbettes are structural members of the hull, removing those is hidiously expensive.

I tried adapting the original SS file, but if you change anything on the gun size or ammo weight, barbette weight adjusts as well.

[maddox]

The die is cast, these beauties of the 7seas will become razorblades in the near future.

But what could replace those?
The 20Kton + modern battleships are to expensive.
The Demarces PC's are too small, and the slow armored cruisers of the Amble class, albeit tough, are obsolete.

Some voices are calling for a Cruisier Combat Rapide. Others call for a Valeur sized Battleship.

Opinions are asked. Please.

[Guinness]

Well, trade protection cruisers seem to be all the rage. I can see France needed a few with long legs, good accommodations, and and a good turn of speed.

But you really only have 3 battleships in service or building that aren't obsolete, unless I'm missing some.

[The Rock Doctor]

Glorious France really needs a larger Eiffel Tower.

[maddox]

You're missing some.

The Dantons are old and in need of a refit. But still powerfull units.
Magenta and Marceau, the long legged ships of the Marine Nationale. Now in the last faze of their lifes.

Napoleon the Great, now repaired , thanks to Habsburg help.

The 2 of the Valeur Class.
2 of the Robbespiere Class
Superbe
And soon the  DeCreme.

Gives France 6 modern BB's, and 8 PDN -6PDN's slated for removal, but not yet removed.
And 3 new BB's in build. 1 Glorious Sized Dreadnaught and 2 updated Robbespiere class.
The rest of the BP's should have gone in Demarce cruisers, Plumeau DD's, a few submarines-bought from others- and the expansion of the ports of Brest, Halifax, Saigon and Papete.
Main issue is that I lost my drive, and didn't post any HY reports. So no progress is obvious.
After next weekend I have a few weeks of relative rest and can -hopefully- adjust all the info.

[The Rock Doctor]

Well - who does France think is a possible opponent, and what do they have that France does not?

[maddox]

A dash of paranoia gives France the world as enemy.

And France does lack 1 thing, fast heavy combatants.

One possible replacement for the Republiques.

Model Deux, French cruisier combat rapide deux laid down 1913

Displacement:
   9.976 t light; 10.530 t standard; 12.069 t normal; 13.300 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   497,05 ft / 492,13 ft x 72,18 ft x 21,98 ft (normal load)
   151,50 m / 150,00 m x 22,00 m  x 6,70 m

Armament:
      9 - 7,68" / 195 mm guns (3x3 guns), 264,55lbs / 120,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 5,51" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 92,59lbs / 42,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      4 - 2,76" / 70,0 mm guns in single mounts, 11,02lbs / 5,00kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 3.536 lbs / 1.604 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 20,0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7,00" / 178 mm   319,88 ft / 97,50 m   9,96 ft / 3,04 m
   Ends:   4,00" / 102 mm   172,22 ft / 52,49 m   9,96 ft / 3,04 m
   Upper:   6,00" / 152 mm   319,88 ft / 97,50 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7,00" / 178 mm   4,50" / 114 mm      7,00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   1,00" / 25 mm   1,00" / 25 mm      1,00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   1,00" / 25 mm   0,50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8,00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 40.625 shp / 30.307 Kw = 25,00 kts
   Range 7.000nm at 14,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2.770 tons (70% coal)

Complement:
   575 - 748

Cost:
   £0,994 million / $3,975 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 385 tons, 3,2%
   Armour: 3.467 tons, 28,7%
      - Belts: 1.884 tons, 15,6%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 583 tons, 4,8%
      - Armour Deck: 910 tons, 7,5%
      - Conning Tower: 91 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 1.700 tons, 14,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4.084 tons, 33,8%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2.093 tons, 17,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 340 tons, 2,8%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16.057 lbs / 7.283 Kg = 71,0 x 7,7 " / 195 mm shells or 2,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 3,7 ft / 1,1 m
   Roll period: 15,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,43
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,541
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,82 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4,92 ft / 1,50 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   18,04 ft / 5,50 m (15,52 ft / 4,73 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50%):      15,52 ft / 4,73 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   15,52 ft / 4,73 m
      - Stern:      15,52 ft / 4,73 m
      - Average freeboard:   16,68 ft / 5,08 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113,0%
   Waterplane Area: 24.582 Square feet or 2.284 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 116 lbs/sq ft or 568 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,50
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

250 tons firecontrol.
50 tons crew comfort messures

[Borys]

Maybe ditch the 14cm, and add another 194mm turret?
Borys

[P3D]

25 knots is enough to run from older battleships but the same speed as the older BCs. Can't keep up with /catch turbine cruisers either. 27kts is needed.

Coal firing is expensive displacement-wise, France might need to look for a reliable oil producer.