CSA Fast BB Proposal

[Guinness]

I was tinkering around with seeing how much speed I could squeeze out of 12,000 HP per shaft with a credible armament of my current major caliber (13.5"). This is what I came up with. The hull is probably too small for credible TDS (much like Jef's design in the nearby Peruvian BB thread), but at any rate, I did an illustration, so I figured I might as well share.

Right-click, view image to see full resolution.



CSA Fast Battleship Proposal, CSA Fast Battleship laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   19,300 t light; 20,322 t standard; 21,824 t normal; 23,025 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   593.00 ft / 590.00 ft x 78.50 ft x 25.65 ft (normal load)
   180.75 m / 179.83 m x 23.93 m  x 7.82 m

Armament:
      6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Main guns limited to end-on fire
      6 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (6 mounts), 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 2.50" / 63.5 mm guns in single mounts, 7.81lbs / 3.54kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 8,561 lbs / 3,883 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   2 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   385.00 ft / 117.35 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   385.00 ft / 117.35 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   590.00 ft / 179.83 m   26.00 ft / 7.92 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.5" / 292 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   3rd:   4.00" / 102 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   4th:         -      0.50" / 13 mm            -
   5th:         -      0.50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,886 shp / 35,723 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,704 tons

Complement:
   897 - 1,167

Cost:
   £1.879 million / $7.517 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,070 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 7,467 tons, 34.2 %
      - Belts: 3,581 tons, 16.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 851 tons, 3.9 %
      - Armament: 1,528 tons, 7.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,304 tons, 6.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 202 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,177 tons, 10.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,186 tons, 37.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,524 tons, 11.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     31,592 lbs / 14,330 Kg = 25.7 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 4.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
   Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 16.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1.04
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.53

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.643
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.52 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.29 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6.12 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (19 %):   28.00 ft / 8.53 m (26.00 ft / 7.92 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      26.00 ft / 7.92 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (19 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m (24.00 ft / 7.32 m before break)
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.61 ft / 6.89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 35,251 Square feet or 3,275 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 762 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.73
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc Weights:
250t: Fire Control
50t: Long Range Wireless, Short Range Wireless, Signals
25t: Flag Facilities
25t: Additional Pumps and other Damage control
25t: Overseas oiling equipment
25t: Weight Reserve

[Sachmle]

Well she certainly looks pretty. I would check your shell weights, as Carth had a standard size for each gun listed. I believe the 13.5"/40 was a 1250lbs shell and the 13.5"/45 was a 1500lbs shell. He was also working on a 14"/45 w/ a 2000lbs shell. Also, I think that an 80' beam is the accepted minimum for an effective TDS to be possible.

[The Rock Doctor]

I've seen it suggested that 25 m is the minimum width for an effective torpedo bulkhead.  The width you do have, plus the large triple turrets, might make for a tight fit.

The layout seems "right" for a CSA ship, as the triples allow for a less expensive hull than three twins.  Not that I hold you obligated to Carthaginian's design philosophies or anything.

Otherwise, it looks like an interesting counter to Luchador - if CSA thinks such a type is necessary - and I think it's a really good pic.

Sam:  2000 lbs for a 14" shell?  The largest historical 14" shells were only around 1600 lbs tops...

[Sachmle]

Direct from the Confederate Armory Logs.

CURRENTLY PLANNED (with introduction dates):
BATCH #1
2000-pounder/40 caliber (14.0") Model of 1910

Not saying I think it's normal, just listing what Carth was doing, and with a 1910 model year I'd presume they're done.

[The Rock Doctor]

Yikes...

[Sachmle]

What is the SS default for a 14" shell? Whatever that is multiply by 1.2 to get the Nverse "Super Heavy" max shell weight, as per the rules.

[The Rock Doctor]

1,372 lbs is the default

[Sachmle]

So it was 30% not 20%, oh well. I found the thread, it's from when P3D was still modding, so I don't know if it's a rule per se, or a guidline.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1478.msg14935#msg14935
And w/ a 30% overweight those 14" shells are still only 1783.6lbs

[Guinness]

Carthaginian had listed a 13.5" gun firing a 1500lb shell. So I've adjusted that in the SS below (keeping the dimensions, mostly because I don't want to tinker with the illustration when I should be sleeping).

It looks like he's using the SS default for the 5.5", so I've kept that. Here's the revised SS:

CSA Fast Battleship Proposal, CSA Fast Battleship laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   19,192 t light; 20,322 t standard; 21,824 t normal; 23,025 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   593.00 ft / 590.00 ft x 78.50 ft x 25.65 ft (normal load)
   180.75 m / 179.83 m x 23.93 m  x 7.82 m

Armament:
      6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Main guns limited to end-on fire
      6 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (6 mounts), 83.19lbs / 37.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 2.50" / 63.5 mm guns in single mounts, 7.81lbs / 3.54kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 0.30" / 7.6 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1912 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 10,180 lbs / 4,618 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   2 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   385.00 ft / 117.35 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   385.00 ft / 117.35 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.00" / 25 mm   590.00 ft / 179.83 m   26.00 ft / 7.92 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   3rd:   4.00" / 102 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   4th:         -      0.50" / 13 mm            -
   5th:         -      0.50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,886 shp / 35,723 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,704 tons

Complement:
   897 - 1,167

Cost:
   £1.875 million / $7.502 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,070 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 6,892 tons, 31.6 %
      - Belts: 3,316 tons, 15.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 568 tons, 2.6 %
      - Armament: 1,502 tons, 6.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,304 tons, 6.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 202 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,177 tons, 10.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,653 tons, 39.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,632 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     31,453 lbs / 14,267 Kg = 25.6 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 4.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
   Metacentric height 4.0 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 16.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1.23
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.52

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.643
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.52 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.29 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 6.12 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (19 %):   28.00 ft / 8.53 m (26.00 ft / 7.92 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      26.00 ft / 7.92 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (19 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m (24.00 ft / 7.32 m before break)
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.61 ft / 6.89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 35,251 Square feet or 3,275 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 165 lbs/sq ft or 806 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.83
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Misc Weights:
250t: Fire Control
50t: Long Range Wireless, Short Range Wireless, Signals
25t: Flag Facilities
25t: Additional Pumps and other Damage control
25t: Overseas oiling equipment
25t: Weight Reserve

[Korpen]

Direct from the Confederate Armory Logs.

CURRENTLY PLANNED (with introduction dates):
BATCH #1
2000-pounder/40 caliber (14.0") Model of 1910

Not saying I think it's normal, just listing what Carth was doing, and with a 1910 model year I'd presume they're done.

I suspect thare is is a typo in the gun log, as the gun getting developed in the sim reports is a 38cm gun (15"). A 900+kg shell for a 38 is much, but not from spcae. :)

[Korpen]

Armament:
      6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Main guns limited to end-on fire

Having guns limited to end-on fire is not a good thing...
There are a few way to rectify that problem.
The simplest way would be to change the trim, considering her seakeeping, raising the trim into the thirties should be possible, and that could fix the recoil issue, as well as improving her stability (always a good thing).
The other two easy ways are to lower freeboard and/or increase beam.

[Guinness]

Armament:
      6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Main guns limited to end-on fire

Having guns limited to end-on fire is not a good thing...
There are a few way to rectify that problem.
The simplest way would be to change the trim, considering her seakeeping, raising the trim into the thirties should be possible, and that could fix the recoil issue, as well as improving her stability (always a good thing).
The other two easy ways are to lower freeboard and/or increase beam.

Thanks! I was able raise her trim into the lower 30s without affecting seakeaping to fix that issue.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I also suport the theory of 2000lbs 14" to be a typo. Waaaay too heavy - the heaviest shells for that calibre were c.1600 pounds (c.720kg).
But 2000 lb would fit a 15" gun quite nicely.
BTW - I am developing
13,5"/45/1500lbs
15"/40/2000lbs
myself.

Borys

[Jefgte]

Your BB is less powerfull than last CSA BBs
C.S.S. Oklahoma
C.S.S. Arizona
C.S.S. New Mexico
18500t - 1910 - 8x13"5

You have:
6x13"5 - Lower protection but 4 kts faster for 19200t
Is that really your choice ?

Could I suggest to increase the concept of your BB & add a 3rd turret.
(Others countries built 25.000t BBs)


Jef  ;)

[Guinness]

Your BB is less powerfull than last CSA BBs
C.S.S. Oklahoma
C.S.S. Arizona
C.S.S. New Mexico
18500t - 1910 - 8x13"5

You have:
6x13"5 - Lower protection but 4 kts faster for 19200t
Is that really your choice ?

Could I suggest to increase the concept of your BB & add a 3rd turret.
(Others countries built 25.000t BBs)


Jef  ;)

Really, this is just one of many design exercises by the CSA for a possible future BB class. We've got to get what we're building in the water before we start any more, of course.

(in real life turns, I used it as an exercise to get up to speed on SS and fiddle with some fun ship illustrations).