No, I don't give up easy

[Valles]

My Bardiche class battleships are stinkers. Sure, they're big and tough, but with a broadside of only seven relatively small guns, no torpedo protection, and armor that falls far short of what's coming to be expected in the face of increasing gun sizes, they're pretty much obsolescent before their time.

At the moment, I haven't really made up my mind what I'm going to do about that, though. the main options seem to be to keep them in service as giant point cruisers once more modern and competitive ships are fielded (which is expensive in terms of manpower), to sell them somewhere overseas (need to find a buyer), to scrap them (very inefficient return on their investment)...

...or to rebuild them. I have the technology. I can make them stronger, faster, better.

So, here's what I'm looking at in the way of that last. I figure that it'd cost about $16 and 10BP per ship.

Reinforce/R, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   30,280 t light; 31,666 t standard; 35,299 t normal; 38,206 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   713.32 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 26.25 ft (normal load)
   217.42 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m  x 8.00 m

Armament:
      6 - 14.96" / 380 mm guns (2x3 guns), 1,674.25lbs / 759.43kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 11,899 lbs / 5,397 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   423.23 ft / 129.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   5.91" / 150 mm   282.12 ft / 85.99 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   705.38 ft / 215.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.57" / 40 mm   423.23 ft / 129.00 m   22.18 ft / 6.76 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 380 mm   11.8" / 300 mm      15.0" / 380 mm
   3rd:   5.91" / 150 mm         -               -
   4th:   5.91" / 150 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 45,228 shp / 33,740 Kw = 22.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6,540 tons

Complement:
   1,286 - 1,673

Cost:
   £2.562 million / $10.247 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,487 tons, 4.2 %
   Armour: 14,007 tons, 39.7 %
      - Belts: 6,547 tons, 18.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 547 tons, 1.5 %
      - Armament: 2,666 tons, 7.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,974 tons, 11.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 274 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,803 tons, 5.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,457 tons, 35.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,020 tons, 14.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 525 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     76,607 lbs / 34,748 Kg = 45.8 x 15.0 " / 380 mm shells or 12.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
   Metacentric height 6.9 ft / 2.1 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.57

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.678
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Stern:      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   23.23 ft / 7.08 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 185.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 54,559 Square feet or 5,069 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 118 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 821 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.24
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

250 tons assorted unplanned weights
25 tons long-range radio installation
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia

Class of three:
Reinforce
Bardiche
Raging Heart

[The Rock Doctor]

From my perspective, this isn't going to substantially improve the ship.  She'll still be quite undergunned for her size, and you'll have pumped a heap of cash and BP into her.

Consider the possibility of removing some of the singles and altering the superstructure to allow cross-deck firing; then, develop a 12.6" gun and rebore the existing guns to this standard... 

[Valles]

About like so?

Bardiche/Refit-A, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   27,042 t light; 28,560 t standard; 32,071 t normal; 34,880 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   708.30 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
   215.89 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m  x 7.00 m

Armament:
      4 - 12.60" / 320 mm guns (2x2 guns), 999.81lbs / 453.51kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
      4 - 12.60" / 320 mm guns in single mounts, 999.81lbs / 453.51kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 9,852 lbs / 4,469 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   423.23 ft / 129.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   5.91" / 150 mm   282.12 ft / 85.99 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   1.97" / 50 mm   705.38 ft / 215.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.57" / 40 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   22.18 ft / 6.76 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.8" / 275 mm
   2nd:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.8" / 275 mm
   3rd:   5.91" / 150 mm         -               -
   4th:   5.91" / 150 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 43,690 shp / 32,593 Kw = 22.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6,320 tons

Complement:
   1,197 - 1,557

Cost:
   £2.225 million / $8.899 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,232 tons, 3.8 %
   Armour: 11,868 tons, 37.0 %
      - Belts: 4,550 tons, 14.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 424 tons, 1.3 %
      - Armament: 2,570 tons, 8.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,068 tons, 12.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 257 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,742 tons, 5.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,675 tons, 36.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,029 tons, 15.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 525 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     77,059 lbs / 34,954 Kg = 77.1 x 12.6 " / 320 mm shells or 12.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
   Metacentric height 7.5 ft / 2.3 m
   Roll period: 15.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.49

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.704
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 40 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.54 ft / 0.47 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Stern:      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   23.23 ft / 7.08 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 204.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 55,846 Square feet or 5,188 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 125 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 158 lbs/sq ft or 774 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.11
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons assorted unplanned weights
25 tons long-range radio installation
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia

Class of three:


I'm going to be building localized version of the CSA 15"/40 for my 'new construction' battleships anyway, so I'd like to keep my battleline as uniform as possible. OTOH, now that the idea's been suggested, it could reasonably be applied to the Greek Twins, making 32cm my 'light standard' rather than 30.

Or, hmm... a fourth 38cm turret midships, 'back to back' with Q...? Another 3BP per ship, ouch, but it would up the firepower substantially.

[The Rock Doctor]

Yeah, something like that.  The notion of replacing 2x12" with 3x15" strikes me as impractical - you'd really have to gut the hull of the ship (especially if you were putting in another twin).

Frankly, if your overall strategy is for capital ships to preoccupy the enemy while the light forces make decisive strikes, I don't see the value in dumping ten destroyers' worth of steel into each of these three ships.

[Valles]

Point. They just nag at my perfectionist streak, I guess.

[P3D]

I am not sure that there's enough safety margin in the gun to rebore it. The Italian guns were the only ones, and they were a pretty conservative Vickers design.

[Korpen]

I have already in other threads mentioned what I think about trying to install torpedo bulkheads in a ship that was built without them. Apart from the possible impossibility, the fact that the ship got lots of wing turrets mean that the torpedo defence would be compromised along much of the ships length.

But I really think that the suggested modifications are a case of throwing good money after bad. What is basically happening is that for to cost of upgrading the three ships from sub-par to average, you could build a brand new ship that would be both smaller as well as better.
The other thing is that all the proposed modifications would take years, and the ships in question have not even been in service for three years. So the upgrades would seriously impair the operational capabilities of Maoria.

[Jefgte]

Over 27.000t or 30.000t for a BB laid down in 1906...

For me, I think that's too big & not realist with the technical of that year.
In 1906, 20.000t is certainly correct
27.000t is a 1912 displacement.

Mods, is there a limit progression displacement board for BB year after year ?


Jef  ;)

[Korpen]

Over 27.000t or 30.000t for a BB laid down in 1906...

For me, I think that's too big & not realist with the technical of that year.
In 1906, 20.000t is certainly correct
27.000t is a 1912 displacement.

Mods, is there a limit progression displacement board for BB year after year ?

There is no displacement limit in the rules as such; the fact that it is bloody expensive and not really practical is more then limit enough (those three ships used up every Maori BP for three years).

Why do you think it would not be feasible? After all, there were several liners built around that time that was just as large.

[Jefgte]

Right,

BBs displacements are late with liners.

Liners displacement are good practical limits

I found Lusitania, laid down in 1904 with 31550grt

Race is over  :D :D :D

YESSSSSSSSSS  in 1930 I hope to see 80.000t BBs in your fleets
  :o  :o  :o


Jef  ;)

[Desertfox]

You could always sell them. There are buyers out there...

[Valles]

I was figuring Bharat. They have a large enough economy to absorb any reasonable purchase price, but lack the industry to build equivalents on their own. For a nation that's overwhelmingly a land power, their status as essentially coast defense ships is problem-free, and none of their local rivals could even really hope to build something that equals them.